Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Brannigan, Jan 22, 2014.

  1. SPCTRE

    SPCTRE Badass Admiral

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    Oooooh, now I wish they had used the Galaxy-X modifications (third nacelle, anyone?) from AGT for ST XIII - the outcry that would have caused... priceless. ;)
     
  2. AverageWriter

    AverageWriter Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Generations was a mess of plotholes- everything from "Why aren't Lursa and B'eTor dead yet" all the way up to the end of the film and it's shameless "fire when cloaked" ripoff from Star Trek VI. You would have thought that, given the amount of damage the OLD Enterprise was able to take (unshielded) from Warbird shots, the D would be made of sterner stuff.

    You know, the one thing that gets me- they could have had the big climactic battle scene with the Enterprise D being blown to bits...

    AND saved it at the same time.

    AND saved his family that burned to death.

    AND kept Kirk from dying.

    All he had to do was just exit the Nexus at literally ANY point before the fire killed his extended family, and as soon as they find Soran, just punch him in the face and throw him in the brig.

    Instead he picked what was quite possible the worst moment -period- to exit the Nexus.

    TNG is my favorite Trek, but sometimes the obvious plotholes make me scratch my head.
     
  3. Shat Happens

    Shat Happens Captain Captain

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    My 2 quatloos:

    Kirk single-handedly saved the Earth from the Whale Probe. Picard did nothing comparable to "earn" a new Galaxy-class Enterprise.

    I dont like the E-E, for the same reason I don't like the E-A: ther weren't in good movies.
     
  4. Leto_II

    Leto_II Captain Captain

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    In offscreen sources like Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, it was postulated that the starship that was eventually designated the Enterprise-A was in fact finished, construction-wise, months prior to the Cetacean Probe's arrival at Earth.

    The USS Ti-Ho (NCC-1798) had been undergoing its initial deep-space trials and had just returned to Spacedock when the Probe showed up -- it was after Admiral Kirk's trial that it was rechristened NCC-1701-A, but it had been completed some time around Star Trek III.

    Non-filmic, of course, but very plausibly laid out in that book; it's always been a particular favorite of mine.

    To be sure, it's not the same thing that we saw in Star Trek VI -- in that film, the Enterprise-A used sensor devices to track the gaseous emissions of Chang's Bird-of-Prey in order to gain a targeting lock (the ship was utterly untraceable up to that point).

    In Generations, the Enterprise-D triggers a cloaking-activation via transmitted signal-pulse in order to force the Duras sisters' ship to drop its shields long enough to score some damage; the ship was already decloaked and well-visible to the Enterprise.
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    And fighting Klingons in the Trek movies has always involved defeating their invisibility advantage; this is a feature of the Klingon menace.

    Why Picard wouldn't go back to Adam and Eve to reshuffle things is pretty clear. He's an officer with a duty, and if he goes back any further, Lursa and B'Etor and their doomsday weapon will be at large. If he goes back just the smidgen he does, the Klingons will be under the guns of the Federation Flagship and no tribble at all. Picard isn't the type to sacrifice the safety of the entire Federation for personal gain or the life of a little kid.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I think that's not the point - It was the same footage. The same piece of film, reused. i.e. they were too cheap to film a new special effect and re-used the footage from the film just previous, as if no one would notice. And not just an establishing shot like the ship leaving port, which are often stock shots, but the climax of the film's major battle scene, which should be individual and memorable! It takes you right out of the film with a big :wtf:! Even more than the rest of the film, it screamed "We don't really care if we make a good product, 'cause we know you guys will give us money as long as it says Star Trek on the label."
     
  7. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You're thinking of Romulans.

    The Klingons didn't even HAVE cloaking devices until Search for Spock, and Enterprise didn't bother to defeat it so much as wait for them to decloak and then punch them in the face really fast.

    Not unless he uses his knowledge of the future to thwart Soran in the first place, much like he does in "Time Squared," and like O'Brien did in "Visionary."

    Then everyone on Amagosa except Soran is still dead, that star has still exploded, and a bunch of pissed off Romulans are still roaming the galaxy looking for their missing trilithium.
     
  8. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That has bothered me from the very moment I saw Generations in theaters and continues to ruin my enjoyment of that movie every single time I watch it. It almost feels like the cheesy "camera cuts away suddenly!" scenes in old spy movies where somebody gets gruesomely murdered but they don't actually SHOW it because it's the 70s, dammit.
     
  9. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The thing about that shot was, not only did they reuse it just to save a few bucks, the reason why Lursa and Betor have an old BoP in the first place was so that they could reuse that TUC shot of it getting destroyed. So they spent all that time and money on new shots of the BoP in Generations, but when it came time for the ship to get blown up, they got cheap. Unbelievable.

    They should have given the sisters a battleship comparable in power to the Enterprise-D, so the fight would at least have been on more equal footing, and the Ent-D wouldn't have had to have been brought down just by a "lucky shot" from an antiquated ship.
     
  10. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    There weren't any Romulans to fight in the movies. (Not until Nemesis, where only the Remans cloaked.)

    ...The first-ever fight with them in the movies (simulations aside). The cloak remained a factor ever since.

    What "unless"? How could Picard catch Lursa and B'Etor doing illegal things by going way back in time?

    Picard has no idea when Soran provided the Klingons with their doomsday missiles (and in fact Soran never did, but Picard doesn't know that!), so at best he could go back to the day the El-Aurians arrived in Federation space and arrest Soran there and then, on no charges whatsoever.

    But said trilithium is under the control of the good guys, which wouldn't happen at any other timepoint.

    Oh, Picard could again confiscate the stuff on flimsy charges at an earlier timepoint, assuming he could convince somebody to help him out with apprehending Soran. But the Duras sisters would still be at large, with no certainty on whether they already possessed the trilithium weapon or at least its secret. The key factor here is that while Soran may be elusive, the Cleavage Duo is invisible - and catching them red-handed is a once-in-a-timeline opportunity.

    Absolutely not. The sisters shouldn't logically command anything like that, given their histories. And the whole point of the villain of the story is that Soran surprises our heroes again and again with his knowledge, skills, technology and ruthlessness; the Durases are just sidekicks whose fortunes are dependent on the main villain. Why would the two suffer Soran if they really were powerful on their own? Why not just take the trilithium, twist the man's arm or other parts until the secrets were divulged, and be done with it? Soran needs to maintain at least psychological superiority throughout the movie, and that works the best if the Klingons don't have outward signs of power.

    And what's wrong with the "lucky shot" thing? Space battles are boring. They need a gimmick to work, and this time the gimmick was Soran, giving the underdog inside intel and apparently also boosted shields.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  11. Corran Horn

    Corran Horn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    well...Riker and crew (with a hint from Picard) did save the Earth from the Borg.
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    It's difficult to say whether saving the Earth, the Federation or the universe is atypical for Starfleet officers. Both Kirk and Picard (or crews under their command) had their turn at those at least:

    Saving the Earth or mankind:

    Kirk: ST:TMP and ST4
    Picard: "All Good Things..", ST:FC, ST:NEM

    Saving the Federation (from an imminent war or a seemingly unstoppable enemy, say):

    Kirk: "Balance of Terror", ST6, peripheral role in "Errand of Mercy"
    Picard: "Conspiracy", ST:GEN, perhaps ST:FC

    Saving the universe:

    Kirk: "The Alternative Factor"
    Picard: "We'll Always Have Paris"

    One wonders, of course, how many of our heroes' exploits went unreported or at least unpopularized. Saving the Earth is bound to make headlines in the general case, but "All Good Things.." is a likely exception! And the role of time travel in ST4 and ST:FC was probably downplayed a lot; the role of Locutus in ST:FC might also best have been kept secret.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. lennier1

    lennier1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    40 years sounds normal for a workhorse.
    Production of the B-52 bombers stopped with the H model in 1963. Those birds are still in use today and have undergone refits througout the decades, with the most recent one for the electronic components going on as we speak.
     
  14. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    ...And several WWII surplus ships are still afloat, despite seawater being a challenging environment for preservation. The Minas Gerais, ex-HMS Vengeance, was theoretically combat-capable from 1945 to 2001, for example.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In your opinion. Only a few years before they had half the Klingon Empire on their side in the civil war. I think they would have found a way to get a better ship from someone who was still loyal to their cause.

    What's wrong is that this is the Enterprise-D we're talking about. A ship whom the fans were invested in for the last seven years. To see it be carelessly brushed aside simply because TPTB wanted a new ship and wanted a "kewl" saucer crash scene was a slap in the face.
     
  16. Wingsley

    Wingsley Commodore Commodore

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    What page number in "The Making of Star Trek" is the 40-year-old remark printed on? Id like to review it.

    I agree that Morrow's remark in TMP3 about the Enterprise (herself) being 20 years old was silly. But I have a theory about that: obviously the technology that went into the TMP refit was extensive. Capt. Decker even told Kirk that the refit made the ship "almost totally new". If, for sake of argument, we consider the refit to have taken place in the later-half of the 2270's, and if the technology that went into the refit was indeed so ground-breaking, then it is possible that the development of its design (and the design of its component technologies) was started as far back as the 2260s.

    So if the hull # 1701 Enterprise was destroyed say, in 2286, but development of the TMP refit / development of the TMP refit's technologies started at the beginning of TOS, then it is not out of line to say that the 1701's technology was, say, 20 years old in the eyes of the Federation's top brass. After all, they were expressing a lot of faith in the newer-tech of the Excelsior which was supposed to blow the doors off the Enterprise.
     
  17. Nightowl1701

    Nightowl1701 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I've said it before, I'll say it again...

    Harry Morrow was Kirk's friend (probably from when he first became an Admiral, if not earlier). He was trying to spare Jim's feelings. What he was really saying (in a subtle way that Kirk would get, but wouldn't publicly embarrass him in front of his shipmates) was "Jim, you've been attached to the Enterprise for 20 years, more or less. It's time to let her go. You're in your fifties, you're an Admiral and a schoolteacher now. The Excelsior is coming out, a new generation is taking charge. We (meaning the Admiralty) feel her day - and your day as a captain - is over." That's why he made a point of saying 20 years and not 40 - because that's how long ago Kirk took command.

    That's probably also part of the reason the Enterprise was decommissioned, in addition to her age and banged-up state. "We're never gonna get this guy settled down as long as that damn ship's around."
     
  18. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^Then why didn't Morrow just say, "You've been the Enterprise's captain for twenty years; we feel that it's time for the both of you to move on," instead of, "The Enterprise is twenty years old; we feel her day is over?"

    I don't think Morrow was at all trying to spare Jim's feelings. He was making a statement of fact about the age of the Enterprise and how Starfleet feels about the ship. The fact that he got the Enterprise's age wrong was just sloppy writing.
     
  19. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There were in TOS, when the Klingons made four appearances without ever using the cloaking device (the Romulans made three, cloaking all three times).

    By arresting Soran on the observatory and/or shooting down the Sisters they showed up to collect him (now that he knows they're there). Or by simply confiscating his solar probes so the sisters couldn't get access to it.

    Of course he does: after the observatory but before Viridian-III. He knows this because Soran didn't launch the probe from their bird of prey, he had to launch it from the observatory itself. Which means the weapon wasn't actually COMPLETED prior to that point, apparently because Soran only recently got access to a quantity of stolen trilithium from the Romulans.

    Why would he have to convince somebody? He's Captain of the USS Enterprise, with a crew that has seen WAY too much weird shit to doubt his time-travel story. Much less so if he shows up on the bridge with:

    "Attention everyone. I've just arrived from a temporal nexus that transported me seven days into the past in order to stop a madman from launching a doomsday weapon that will destroy several hundred million innocent people. Set course for the Amagosa observatory, warp six. Also, yes, the man standing behind me is Captain James T. Kirk. Autograph signing will be in half an hour. Engage!"

    And technobabble is really exciting, yes?

    I'm gonna quote a passage here, see if you can guess the book:

    Space battles can be pretty damn exciting when they're done right. Technojibberish gimmicks do NOT fit that category.
     
  20. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Consider that McCoy just finished making the exact OPPOSITE point at the beginning of Wrath of Khan where he urged Kirk "Get back your command! Get it back before you become part of this collection! Before you really grow old!"

    Consider that this probably isn't happening in a vacuum, so there's a lot of loaded emotion there when McCoy prefaces with "I'm your doctor and I'm your friend..." this means McCoy's opinion is not a popular, it's not one Kirk wants to hear, and it's probably going to get him into a lot of trouble if he really does it. Kirk knows it and McCoy knows it, but McCoy ALSO knows that Kirk is miserable without a ship to command. So his wrath of Khan line is basically this:

    "Fuck the admiralty, go get yourself a ship."

    I don't think he's trying to spare his feelings either, but I'm pretty sure he's trying to convince Kirk to get the fuck out of that chair and go fly a desk like everyone else wants him to do. I suspect this has a lot less to do with his age or even the age of the Enterprise than it does with Starfleet not really trusting Kirk and wanting to keep him out of trouble.

    Let's face it: the Khan fiasco is the snowballing result of a bad decision Kirk made (and evidently didn't properly report to Starfleet, and was made worse by a combination of Kirk's cowboy attitude (not raising shields when he was supposed to) and his personal attachment to Doctor Marcus. Probably more damming is the destruction of Reliant and the detonation of the Genesis Device; the first is just a regrettable loss of material that could be justified by Khan's piracy, but the latter is an unfolding fiasco of which Kirk is the cosmic center.

    Basically, they're pulling the "she's too old, Jim" card because it's a plausible way of keeping him the hell away from Genesis before he can make things even worse (and is also why Captain J.T. "By the Book" Esteban got to take David and Saavik on the Genesis Expedition).

    More to the point, when Kirk later asks for the Enterprise back, Morrow jumps from one excuse after another (the Enterprise wouldn't stand the pounding! The Council won't like it!) and finally settles on "Think of your career."

    That's when Kirk finally gets that Starfleet (or the Council, probably) doesn't want HIM SPECIFICALLY going back to Genesis and Morrow is trying really hard to come up with an excuse. Incidentally, Kirk's return to Genesis wound up creating exactly the kind of interstellar incident everyone was hoping to avoid, although in all fairness it wasn't actually his fault, and in even greater fairness putting him back in charge of a starship probably makes him a lot easier to control since they can now assign him to "Saturn ring patrol" or something until he retires.