Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Brannigan, Jan 22, 2014.

  1. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    T'Pau
    NSP-17938
    Vulcan National Merchant Fleet
     
  2. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Bingo. Thanks, Ithekro. Link.
     
  3. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So it is registered to Vulcan. Not the Federation. That would be like, oh, registering your car in California I suppose. Is it registered to the United States? No. Is it an American car? Not particularly (though that definition usually refers to nation of manufacture rather than registration). Is it a California car, yes, because that is were it is registered. That is where the money goes and the regulations for permits and the like.

    Same might be said for a Vulcan ship verse a Federation ship. Starfleet are all Federation ships because they are the multi-national exploration and defense organization. But the Vulcan National Merchant Fleet? A Vulcan ship. Is it part of the Federation? Yes. Is it a proper Federation starship? Only by place of construction (Apollo-class Federation starship). Is it registered as a Federation ship? I don't think so.
     
  4. AirCommodore

    AirCommodore Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah, I am just not getting why this is such a hard concept to grasp. There could be all manner of ship registries, including all of the member worlds.
     
  5. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    If Vulcan is a member of the Federation, then it's a Federation ship. If Vulcan isn't a member of the Federation, then it's not.

    Specifying a ship as being Vulcan is merely a way of distinguishing it from a Starfleet vessel or determining its point of origin. Doesn't mean that it isn't a Federation ship.
    Exactly. A Federation ship doesn't have to be a Starfleet one. It really isn't that hard a concept. Anything else is just splitting hairs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2014
  6. Saturn0660

    Saturn0660 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think you're the one splitting hairs. It's not that hard to get.

    I'll use where I live.
    1.Ohio plate for my car. Ohio registered "civilian "ship"'. me
    2.Ohio Government plate. Ohio registered "military "ship"". cops
    3.U.S Government plates. U.S.A. registered "military "ship"". mil

    1. local planet ship i.e. Vulcan civilian ship
    2. local militia planet ship i.e. Vulcan militia ship
    3. Federation ship. 90% of what we see in all of ST.

    So by your logic my car is a US registered car. Thats not what it is at all. It's a car in Ohio that has to follow Ohio rules. i.e. two plates.(front/back)
     
  7. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    You're mistaken. In fact, it's the exact opposite of splitting hairs as it's being comprehensive. It's just a simple case of calling ships from Federation members Federation ships. You can have Earth ships, Vulcan ships, Andorian ships, etc., but they all can be regarded as Federation ships.
     
  8. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One cannot be certain that is how it works though. Especially in how things are phrased. A Vulcan ship named T'Pau that operates as a merchantmen would not generally be listed as a Federation starship. It would be listed as a Vulcan starship. An Earth ship, named Enterprise, would not be listed as a Federation starship. It would be the Earth starship Enterprise. It would not have a "USS" on it as that would be for a ship of the United Federation of Planets.

    Member planets of the Federation are even more autonomous than states in the United States of American, and have their own national identity. It would stand to reason that they would have their own ships still and those would not generally be called "Federation" ships, but more properly ships of their nation.
     
  9. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    It's just calling a spade a spade.

    One can try to come up with all sorts of (fairly unnecessary, IMO) rationales why ships from Federation member worlds aren't really Federation ships, but it really comes across as not seeing the forest for the trees.
     
  10. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Modern day, Malaysia is a Member of the British Commonwealth, that doesn't mean that every ship and naval vessel flagged out of Malaysia is a British Commonwealth ship.

    Similarly, Vulcan is a UFP Member, that doesn't mean that every (or any) Vulcan civilian ship, merchantman and defense ship is a "Federation ship."

    The Federation likely does have some starships for use in Federation business. But the vast majority of the ships moving through space within the Federation are not "Federation ships." They are registered to one of the Member worlds, or to a colony, or to a business, or to a individual.

    Or they're from a non-Member civilization.

    Less the states in the United States, and more something like the sovereign nations that are a part of the United Nations, or the Organization of American States.

    Yes, being a Federation Member is a part of their total makeup, but that Membership isn't the only thing that they are. And as a sovereign entity being a Federation Member might not even be on their top ten list of importance.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2014
  11. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    I guess they're not even Earth vessels by that token.
    I think if they run across Klingon or Romulan ships, they'll definitely be regarded as Federation ships regardless if they come from Vulcan or any other Federation world.
     
  12. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It would be like if the Klingons (or the Romulans) ran across the lower portion of the Apollo Eleven lunar lander on our moon and regarded it as a "Federation ship."

    In other words, they'd be wrong.

    :)
     
  13. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In Enterprise there was still talk about the Royal Navy. Ships in that Navy would not properly be called Earth ships, not registered as Earth ships. They would be ships of the Royal Navy, part of the Commonwealth, and British ships. A Klingon might call it an Earth ship, but they would be wrong on all technical levels aside from planet of origin.

    And in all contexts that have been discussed about the people refereeing to the number of "Federation Starships named Enterprise", have all been Federation citizens, who would be able to know the difference, as oppose to a Klingon or Cardassian, who could care less about such technicalities.

    The T'Pau is also called a Vulcan ship, rather than a Federation ship. It is more specific. They could have just left it as the T'Pau, but they went the extra kilometer or two to specifically mention that it is from Vulcan and was registered to the Vulcan National Merchant Fleet. That would be a sovereignty issue.
     
  14. AirCommodore

    AirCommodore Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    There is at least one Enterprise after the NX-01 and before the 1701 in the comics set in the alternate timeline. I think that if the JJ team ever got around to telling or mentioning more events between 2161 and 2258, they will stick to that and say other Federation Starship Enterprises existed during those years. At least one. I am guessing that they wanted to maintain that a Robert April did still command an Enterprise even if was not the 1701 Enterprise.
     
  15. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    When interviewed about his vulcan shuttle in TMP, Probert specified it was "on detached service to Vulcan." Detached from Starfleet, I would assume.
     
  16. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    Why would they be even interested in the remains of the Apollo-11 lunar lander in the first place?
    If you actually look closely at the inner nacelle of April's Enterprise, it's hull registry reads NCC-1701 too.
    http://i.imgur.com/xSjePu8.jpg
    I remember it being identical to the new proposed shuttles that the Enterprise was carrying except in livery.
    http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img20/6767/ntrq.jpg
    Warp sled attachments might be standard for long-range trips.
     
  17. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You mean like how Klaa thought the Pioneer probe was a Federation ship before he blew it up? Oh, wait, he didn't.
     
  18. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The warp sled shuttle would appear to be a Vulcan vessel and not Starfleet by it's markings. The first two letters in it's registry are "VS," Vulcan Ship perhaps?

    I've always liked that it's marked (apparently) in Vulcan characters, and not just in English.

    Might be as simple as there are companies or a corporation on one or more of the Member worlds that manufactures shuttles, for the Federation, Starfleet, the various Member governments, businesses and individuals who want shuttles. Some would be armed, others not, custom paint jobs as required.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    :)
     
  19. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A good point that ships of the same type or class might not even be in the same organization, or even country.

    In our history, both British and American ships built during the Second World War were sold to allied (and other) nations to use in there navies. Some still exist in the service of South American nations, India, and South East Asia.

    Also there are ships built by one nation to be sold to another nation from the start. The United States built or released the plans on how to build some frigate and destroyers classes to other nations such as Australia, Turkey, and Japan. And over a century ago, places like France, German, and Britain were building ships for other countries that didn't quite have enough shipbuilding infrastructure to build as many ships as they had money for. Russia had a few French and American designs. Japan has British designs. China and Turkey had German ships. Chile, Brazil, and Argentian had a little naval arms race going in the 1880s to 1910s with French, British, and later American ship designs built for them.

    Japan's first ironclad was a French built ship, originally built for the Confederate States of America. CSS Stonewall.
     
  20. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The (attempted) point being just because a interstellar civilization holds a membership in the Federation doesn't mean that every vessel that can move at warp speed becomes the property of the Federation.

    Whatever fleet of armed starships, merchantmen, and privately owned starships Arabella Five had before membership, they had during membership.

    Your home owners association doesn't get you car.

    :)



    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014