Was Kruge... 'misunderstood'?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Lance, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Location:
    The Enterprise's Restroom
    Yes, he's a badass. And yes, he's utterly ruthless with it. :) Make no bones about it, he crosses the line multiple times, clearly indicating a lack of basic decent morality...

    ... or at least, a lack of human morality. But are his actions justifiable in a Klingon context? Let's look at events from his point-of-view: he mentions unerringly throughout the movie that his motivation is to explore the possibilities of the Federation's new "weapon", this so-called 'Project Genesis'. He's blinded by this mission statement. He believes it completely, perhaps to the point of being unable to see/accept any possibility that it was designed with a more benign purpose. He is clear within his own mind that Starfleet is developing biological weapons of mass destruction for use against the Klingon Empire, and having convinced himself of this 'fact', he feels no shame is taking pre-emptive action to try and uncover the 'secret'. Up to and including many dishonorable things, like taking hostages and murdering them.

    Undoubtedly he is also blinded by the power that Genesis could bring him. If not as a physical weapon for his own personal use, then (surely) in terms of the noteriety it would give him back on the homeworld. Having uncovered and single-handedly stopped the Federations "secret" plans to apparently annihilate the Klingon Empire with this Genesis weapon. I can see him spinning this, to the point where honor is granted to him, the High Council makes him the Chancellor, he's inducted into the Great Hall Of Warriors, etc etc etc. :klingon:

    So. Kruge is the baddie. He's a bad guy. But... in his own mind... was he doing the right thing all along? :confused:
     
  2. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    I love STAR TREK III: The Search for Spock.

    Let me just come out and say that, right up front, it's my favourite movie in this franchise. However, it is not without it's flaws, many - perhaps most - of them having to do with Kruge, himself. He seems very self-destructive and this becomes a common theme with him.

    For starters, he kills his very lovely, statuesque lover for looking at Kirk's report. When Kruge watches it, himself, we find that the report is unrevealing, though he doesn't actually say so. The report offers no coordinates to the Genesis Planet, no indication of how it was arrived at ... Nothing worth killing his piece of crumpet over, surely. Oopsie!

    Kruge only has a dozen officers and men on his ship - total - kills one of them and seems only too prepared to kill another out of irritation. Just how efficient are Klingons supposed to be that their workload can accomodate killing officers left and right?

    Kruge takes hostages, which according to STAR TREK II, never happens and what does he start doing? He hangs himself, whilst being handed the keys to the kingdom. Having Genesis scientists in his grasp, he starts killing them off, just to prove to Kirk that he's serious about wanting Genesis.

    Then, despite his Number One's protests, Kruge sends him and the other ten members of his crew to go kick 400 people's asses on Enterprise and make it surrender. Oh, dear ... Kruge does seem to have a self-destructive streak in him, does he not? Who needs Kirk to defeat him?

    Finally, Kruge fulfills his deathwish by beaming down to the exploding planet and beaming Kirk's crew up to his Bird of Prey, with the Night Court prosecutor on guard. So, yeah ... Kruge's misunderstood. He's not the greatest STAR TREK villian, ever ...
     
  3. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    The visitor's bullpen
    Olmos-as-Kruge* wouldn't have done that.

    He would have just fixed Saavik and David with The Stare and said

    "I'm getting my Genesis".

    *yes, that was the plan, originally.
     
  4. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
    You make some excellent points about Kruge's self-destructive behavior, some of which had not previously occurred to me. But...
    I think, both in 2 and 3, that literary license is taken with the Genesis video with Kirk, and we're supposed to assume that more technical data is associated with it than we are shown (at least in part because while it might be known in the 23rd century, no one knew how to build a Genesis device when TWOK was filmed ;-) ). And if anything, I find this *easier* to believe as time goes on - the idea that the video contains embedded data that is being fed to another screen while the video plays, or hyperlinked information, or any of several other ways of associating the data that I have been exposed to since getting on the internet, or any of many others we will come up with between now and the 23rd century. :)
     
  5. Sam_I_Am

    Sam_I_Am Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Location:
    New Taipei, Taiwan
    I thought it was just a handful of people on the Enterprise loyal to Kirk?
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Per Ardua
    But the Klingons didn't know that. They had no reason to suspect that there were only five people aboard the Enterprise.
     
  7. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Location:
    Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
    I assume you mean *aside* from the sensor readings that would have been in the clear with the shields down? ;)
     
  8. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Per Ardua
    Perhaps Klingon sensors aren't as sophisticated as Starfleet's?
     
  9. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Location:
    Land of Enchantment
    Or Harvey simply chose to take the magical God device out of the equation.

    Good on him.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Per Ardua
    Agreed. Kirk and Company also didn't know how many Klingons were aboard Kruge's ship, just Sulu's guesstimate of about a "dozen officers and men".

    Magic sensors that could pick up feces on a fleas' ass were one of the things about Star Trek that got incredibly tiresome and sucked the drama out of it.
     
  11. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Location:
    An Aussie in Canukistan
    I can't remember an on-screen example, but in the novels at least there have been comments over the years that Klingon technology other than weapons but including things like sensors haven't been quite up to par with the Federation.

    The Federation goes exploring so need powerful sensors that can provide detailed information. Klingons just want to know the weaknesses in order to blow something up.
     
  12. Nebusj

    Nebusj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    To spoil USS Triumphant's joke, after Commander Reverend Jim orders boarding the ship with every last man, his underling protests that ``they outnumber us,'' and Jim doesn't call him an idiot for that.

    I wonder if maybe Kruge was actually understood perfectly but it turns out he was just a jerk.
     
  13. borgboy

    borgboy Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    I did think Kruge killing his wife seemed like, well, overkill. Did he not trust her? Could he not have taken her into protective custody until his mission was complete?
    Of course, Kruge was a kill happy psychopath, but he did seem a little sad at killing his wife, but only a little.
     
  14. Tribble puncher

    Tribble puncher Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Location:
    Washington, OK
    Kruge: "Take every last man, form a boarding party armed heavily."

    1st Officer: "They outnumber us my lor-"

    Kruge: "We are Klingons!"

    Sounds like they were operating on the assumption that the Enterprise had a full crew aboard to me.
     
  15. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    I believe on my STAR TREK III extras, Harve Bennett basically says that "there were very few modifications" to the script. I'm not so sure that Kruge was well-served by that remark, if it were the reality. Kruge is cool and we know this, because he's got a cool ship, a cool dog, he's played by a cool actor, his make-up's cool, he kicks James T. Kirk's ass and has a really cool death scene! But Nimoy's complained time and again in interviews, how the studio put all of this pressure on him, during the making of this movie. I think if he had been under less pressure and time constraints, he might've had a Kruge whose defeat wasn't so assured, to begin with. One who was cool all the way around the block, not just up front.
     
  16. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    Sorry, I still consider the portrayal of the Kruge character the biggest disappointment of the entire film, for the many reasons that have been said here and would like to add this one:

    KRUGE: Genesis, I want it.
    KIRK: Beam the Vulcan up ...and we'll talk.
    KRUGE: Give me what I want and I'll consider it.
    KIRK: You fool, look around you! The planet's destroying itself!
    KRUGE: Yes. Exhilarating, isn't it!
    KIRK: If we don't help each other, we'll die here!
    KRUGE: Perfect! Then that's the way it shall be!
    (suddenly a huge rock erupts out of the ground and throws Kruge on to Kirk and they grapple)
    KRUGE: Give me Genesis!

    WTF was Kruge expecting? :wtf:

    That Kirk would pull out a Genesis Torpedo Device Stanley-Ipkiss-style ("The Mask") out of his pocket? :rofl:

    That Kirk would be throwing him a data cartridge whose content he couldn't possibly verify because there wasn't time? :brickwall:

    Sorry for sounding rude but the Kruge character helped the credibility of the film just as the Ewoks did for "Return of the Jedi".

    Bob
     
  17. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Per Ardua
    I love Kruge. My favorite villain from the Star Trek movies.
     
  18. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    CommishSleer
    I don't see how Kruge is that much different from any TNG Klingons except he's a bit more badass.
    I think Kruge's priority when Kirk came on the scene was to defeat Kirk first and find about Genesis 2nd.
     
  19. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2012
    Kruge was only a commander of some tiny Bird of Prey vessel - he obviously wanted a promotion and a K'tinga class ship. Bringing back something like Genesis to the Klingon empire would assure this.
     
  20. TheMurph

    TheMurph Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2005
    Location:
    TN
    I never really cared for STIII, though it's still ranked higher than a lot of the other treks in my opinion. One thing I did like the most about it however was the portrayal of Kruge. I thought it worked well, and I thought Lloyd did a fabulous job. I thought his Klingon was a nice mix of old and new Klingon, and far more enjoyable than TNG Klingons.