Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by indolover, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. indolover

    indolover Fleet Captain

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    As Jadzia and Worf decided to alter Kurn's memory, I've wondered if that's strictly adhering to Kahless's teachings.

    Most likely it did, since I doubt Worf would go against them. But say Rodek joined the Klingon Defence Force as Lorg's son and died in the Dominion War. When he got to Stovokor, did Kahless address him as Kurn or Rodek? lol...
     
  2. SimpleLogic

    SimpleLogic Guest

    That was the best episode to show that the Federation (Sisko, and Dax specifically) weren't very tolerant of Worf's beliefs even if they were a bit barbaric. And didn't Riker or Picard give Ro some crap about her earring, which is a part of her culture and religious upbringing. I wish they would have ended the episode with Worf fulfilling his brothers real wishes not some "lets all hold hands and be happy cause he's not dead fix-it" solution.

    In terms of the Klingon's actual belief system I think it was a cheat since a tradition so old probably didn't ever account for technology able to wipe memories, so perhaps it is a grey area.
     
  3. Captain Nebula

    Captain Nebula Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Worf did it to Kurn by turning down Gowron, right? Worf's responsible for making it better then. I don't think you ever hear Worf mention Sto-vo-kor - does he really believe?
     
  4. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    The idea of a young man being dishonored or disowned by his family and then walking his own path under a new identity is ages-old, though. One would think that Klingon tradition would cater for all the obvious three alternatives: heroically clearing the honor of the family by performing great deeds (such as slaying one's family), heroically turning one's back on the dishonorable family and starting one's own, and heroically dying because living under dishonor would be an insult to the ancestors / a burden to the Empire / whatnot.

    Worf would just be applying modern technology to combine the last two solutions into one...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  5. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't think not allowing Worf to kill Kurn was a disrespect to his religious beliefs, or the earring thing was a disrespect to Ro's. Both Worf and Ro made a decision to join the Federation and adopt its rules.

    Just like, if you're raised in a culture that considers women to be inferiors, and you move to a country where men and women are considered equals, it is not a disrespect to your beliefs to give you a female supervisor at your job.

    I think the ending to that particular episode was a little silly, and I think he would be addressed as a member of his current house, just as Worf is now considered a member of the House of Martok.
     
  6. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The truly baffling thing was that Worf got his honor back a year later, yet he never stops to think about his brother and how he basically destroyed his memories for nothing since he got everything back for them eventually.
     
  7. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    Reminds me of the possible death in "Change of Heart" for Jadzia, which would have been a great dramatic ending for the character. Instead they held off on her death and gave her that lame sendoff being killed by Dukat with CGI powers a few episodes later.:scream:
     
  8. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If Worf was allowed (albeit reprimanded) to kill Duras, then why would he not be allowed to deal with Kurn as he saw fit?

    Was it because Worf killed Duras on board a Klingon ship, and this thing with Kurn was on DS9?
     
  9. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Worf was not allowed to kill Duras. Worf killed Duras, and then Picard chose to only discipline him by giving him a stern speech about being a Starfleet officer. Legally, though, the reason it wasn't prosecuted as murder was that it happened in klingon jurisdiciton.

    Similarly if Worf had taken shore leave and killed Duras on a Klingon planet it also would not have been prosecutable by the Federation.
     
  10. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So why didn't Worf and Kurn choose to retire to neutral territory before carrying this out? Bajor, for example. It was not yet a Federation world, so if Worf had killed Kurn there, there'd be nothing the Federation could do about it.
     
  11. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Because the plot wouldn't work.
     
  12. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Only excuse I can think of is that Worf was always hoping he could talk Kurn out of it.
     
  13. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    I don't see what the Federation could have done about the thing on DS9, either - had Dax not found out in time. Once Worf kills Kurn, it's the same setup as in "Reunion": Worf commits murder, and Starfleet then has to cope with a done deal and find technicalities to avoid having to prosecute him.

    Worf doesn't care about the law, but his superiors care about Worf. Beyond that, it's down to the personalities of the COs in question, and both use strong words of disapproval but neither appears willing to go beyond that.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It was Riker. And I think it was a case of Riker not really knowing what the ear piece meant, he thought it was simply a piece of Jewelry and not a religious symbol. When Ro put it back on in front of the more knowledgeable Picard, he didn't have a problem with it. There was a Bajorian with the ear piece in First Contact. And there was a Hindu in TOS with a bindi.

    It wasn't murder, it was a mutually consented to duel to the death. Conducted in a territory where such was authorized and legal. Definitely not murder.

    :)
     
  15. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Riker was just being a jerk to Ro, that was it. It had nothing to do with violating Starfleet regulations or anything.
     
  16. Dal Rassak

    Dal Rassak Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Anwar, as to that remark I disagree. Yes he was perhaps being intolerant. But most uniformed organizations have really strict regulations about jewellery, without distinctions between what's mere fashion and what can be deemed "cultural".
    It's not like she'd be forbidden from wearing it when she's off-duty; and it sets up the final scene nicely where she accepts joining on condition she be allowed to wear the earring, and Picard agrees to it.

    As for the original question on this thread<
    I think wiping Kurn's memory was in a way worse than killing him outright. O.k. so he's still alive, but he thinks he's someone else. Replacing a man's identity is like killing the very essence of him. I found it awful when he looked his brother straight in the face and didn't recognize him anymore. Also his wishes should have been ultimately respected.
     
  17. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly. Had Ro not been wearing that earring, Riker would have torn her a new one about her "non-regulation hairdo" or "slouching posture unbecoming of an officer" or "failure to properly address a senior officer when coming aboard". The regulations would exist, in theory, but Riker would never have enforced them if it had not been Ro Laren specifically who was standing where he didn't want her to stand - that is, within fifty lightyears of him.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. Ensign_Redshirt

    Ensign_Redshirt Commodore Commodore

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    Yet Worf killed Gowron on DS9 and he was never arrested for murder.
     
  19. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's not really the case. You could be restricted from wearing rings for decoration and fashion, but this would not apply to a wedding band. Because a wedding band isn't a piece of jewelry, it's a symbol.

    It's the same with religious symbols, you can be restricted from necklaces, but if there is a religious pendant on a necklace that's different, because it ceases to be merely jewelry, it's a symbol. For safety reasons (in limited situations) you might be require to tuck it inside your clothing or remove it for the duration of the safety concern.
     
  20. TiberiusMaximus

    TiberiusMaximus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Forgetting for a moment about the Klingon values involved, I'm more concerned about the fact that Bashir went along with it. From a human, Federation, and Starfleet point of view, how could he possibly justify violating someone's mind in that fashion? Wouldn't that be at odds with his Hippocratic Oath?

    I suppose he could say it was better than the alternative of letting Worf kill Kurn, but that would be a very weak argument.