Voyager again, for the first time

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by NightJim, Feb 26, 2013.

  1. RAMA

    RAMA Admiral Admiral

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    Just perused this thread, two things stand out:

    Country stereotypes: If they took the image of country life which may well be completely different in the 24th century, it is possible that Paris' mind in particular or even Janeway's was idealized, generalized, and homogenized, with the result we saw on screen.

    Indian stereotypes: Chakotay seems to be written as many real life individual Indians I've seen on TV who are making an effort to preserve specific aspects of their past. As such I don't find fault with the character, even if I find fault with the beliefs themselves. I don't think we are menat to believe all Indians (Native Americans) subscribe to such beliefs. I think we're also led to believe this is an aspect of being different or even a rebel that manifests itself within Chakotay to the point he does something else others wouldn't: join the Maquis.

    I'm not actually a huge fan of Robert Beltran's acting, but I recall seeing the producers made an effort not to be stereotypical. For the most part Chakotay did seem like a professional 24th century, former Starfleet member.

    RAMA
     
  2. NightJim

    NightJim Captain Captain

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    When I watched it it originally, I felt Chakotay had the potential to be one of the most interesting characters in the show. Watching Parallax again reminded me of why I thought that, his balancing of the crew showed he was quite aware of how to get the most out of the split crew.

    It's a shame the character slipped. Though part of why I'm rewatching is to see if the show is how I remember it, as well as finally finishing it.
     
  3. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think the potential ever got off the paper.
     
  4. Taylirious

    Taylirious Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Skip to S4 when The Sweetness Of Nine was born. ;)
     
  5. NightJim

    NightJim Captain Captain

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    Honestly, I think it was there in Parallax. Though I could see that being the entire character drive they envisioned and they were then left thinking "err now what?"

    It's certainly not there in Time and Again.

    The first disappointing episode of the journey. Another time anomaly episode straight after the other one? Excellent scheduling there. Apart from that, the fact that basically the episode never happens is terrible. I realise that's a argument that could be levelled at the fantastic Year of Hell further down the road, but at least that was dramatic. Time and Again just never seemed to get going.

    Kes' superpowers are starting to come into it, which I guess could prove interesting, while I remember how that particular story ends I can't remember the rest of the journey so that's got me intrigued.

    Meanwhile, what is quickly becoming a highlight of the whole thing is The Doctor. His journey from evolving from some emergency holo program to a proper character is great, as is the failure of everyone to take him the slightest bit seriously as they still just see him as a tool, not a person. Two episodes on the trot and his concerns are completely ignored. His short scene with Neelix and Kes is the highlight of the episode.

    Oh God Neelix. The character brought onboard for his knowledge of the region, yet other than Caretaker, hasn't known a single thing. I realise we're only two episodes in post Pilot, but these early episodes should be highlighting the differences and difficulties that Voyager should be facing, instead it's generic filler.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  6. NightJim

    NightJim Captain Captain

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    Phage

    Well that'll teach me. After moaning about the lack of Voyager dealing with the problem of being stuck in the middle of nowhere and Neelix's addition to the crew seemingly pointless, this episode opens with both of these issues being addressed. Neelix has a plan to solve the ship's energy situation and has set up a kitchen to help with the food problem. These are the type of issues I want to see being dealt with in the background.

    Then we get to the planetoid with the dilithium and things go sideways. Some great directing gets the tension going and Neelix ends up missing some rather important possessions. The body horror and crew attitudes throughout had me hooked, and once again the Doctor's 'awakening' from just a tool into a proper personality is fascinating. But unlike the previous episode it's a nice side story, rather than being the sole highlight.

    I sort of wish the episode had explored the idea of switching the life support off if they hadn't caught up with the aliens, but at the same time, when Kes was questioning the hologram decision I found myself thinking "at least do it while we see if we can catch up."

    After the disappointment of Time and Again, Phage is exactly what Voyager needed. As an amusing sidenote, here in the UK I think TV was a year behind the US, and this was one of six episodes I bought on VHS when the series first appeared.
     
  7. NightJim

    NightJim Captain Captain

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    The Cloud

    I liked it. Like Phage it does a good job of showcasing the transition of the crew into their situation while having a particularly Star Trek problem for the ship to deal with at the same time.

    Neelix, having now fully assured my complaints of his being on the ship, has started his descent into being annoying. I know he's not in any shape or form military, and was a rough and ready trader before he met Voyager, but on what planet does it make sense to arrive in a crisis centre with entrées? It's completely pointless, and it's not even like they needed him on the bridge for the next bit.

    Meanwhile I loved the bit with Tuvok and Kim basically whispering to each other on the bridge with communicators. It's a nice little subversion of the technology that we're so used too.

    But oh God, the spirit animals have started to appear.
     
  8. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So embarrassing..
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Chakotay "And this is my Spirit stick."

    Janeway "Is this an important part of your Native American religion?"

    Chakotay "No, what? I was the deputy Captain of my High School Cheer leading Squad."
     
  10. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And his balls are still pom poms.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Those jewels cushioned the abuse when the rest of the pyramid fell down on him.
     
  12. NightJim

    NightJim Captain Captain

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    Now Cheerleading would make for an interesting revelation about him. Instead of taking Janeway on a vision quest they go to the holodeck to re-enact this.
     
  13. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But instead of a gym it's rubber trees, right?
     
  14. NightJim

    NightJim Captain Captain

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    Well, of course. ;)

    Eye of the Needle.

    Good episode, but nothing really outstanding or despressing in it. I did like the slow ramp up of various crew members getting excited about going home, from Kim being mental from point 1, to B'Elanna when she figures out the transporter technique.

    Also the Doctor and Janeway's conversation about giving him some autonomy. Is it wrong that this is one of the most interesting things about the show at this point?
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Nope.

    Holorights should be a leading issue here.

    Is there slavery in the Federation?

    But this is when we figure out that there is a Romulan spy positioned on board Voyager who is up to no good, who has had thirty 30s of forward planning behind him to turn political profit form being lost in the Delta Quadrant.
     
  16. NightJim

    NightJim Captain Captain

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    Ha, that would be quite a nice turn of events. The holo-rights thing should definitely be front and centre, but one aspect I found problematic with the whole thing is Janeway's attitude in this episode when Kes was talking to her. It was basically "We programmed it, who cares?" but surely Starfleet have already been through this with Data? It's not that different is it? Both boil down to self aware AI, just one has a robot body, the other a holographic one, or am I being too open minded?
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Doctor is not programmed to be self aware. To guarantee his continued indentured servitude they have to make sure that the Doctor is self unaware and that he gets off on his unawaredness and has no desire what so ever to change that status.

    If they tell him to take a bullet out of Harry Kim's shoulder after a cocked up away mission and he says "No." Do you really think that they'll let Harry die because the Doctor wants to change his name to the Princess?

    Heuristic? Yes.

    Selfaware? No.

    Data on the other hand was created to be alive, self aware and thinking. Treat him like a slave, forget to say please, and he's going to knock you your ass, or at least the constipated passive aggressive mid 24th century equivalency.

    All that being said, the Doctor could "accidentally" become self aware, but he's not going to become "accidentally" self aware, when he's specifically programmed not to be come self aware after only a month in deep space without perhaps something weird happening.

    A few times in later episodes. "technicians" have been amazed and made utterances like "You've been active continuously for how many years?" Dude, you're supposed to be reset to factory settings every couple weeks, no wonder you're glitching and batshit.
     
  18. NightJim

    NightJim Captain Captain

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    Ahh I see, didn't get that. That makes a lot more sense now. From the way he'd been acting and what Kes said (though I realise she's meant to have the outsider naive view of it) I just thought he was.

    So the whole becoming selfaware is due to being on for so long and his programming evolving from that. I also like that Starfleet has a "Did you try rebooting it?" angle on him. Rather nasty that the designers basically knew this would happen and just told people to reset to prevent it.
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There was a TNG episode where the Federation spent billions of credits (however money that doesn't exist works) and millions of man hours to invent a service droid (slave) called the exocomp. By the end of the episode Starfleet had to admit that exocomps were alive, and probably GIVE THEM SEVERAL PLANETS to thrive on and grow as a species. Ditto with when Welsey's high school science experiemnt with nanites got away from him. They had to give away a planet in that episode too. If Holograms decide they require equal rights to the fleshies and there might be more holograms than fleshies in the Federation, exactly how many planets do you think that they're going to incist of taking to build their own civilization upon? Half the Federation? 3/4's of the Federation? All of the Federation?

    If the Federation could learn from history they never would have called this ship Voyager after the death toll a rambling living AI called Voyager racked up in the Motionless Picture.

    Case in point. In America while they kept slaves. If a black person learnt how to read, that was clear grounds for execution. Slaves do what they're told and make the lives of their masters idyllic. Any example to the contrary is met with a whipping. Next thing you'll have me beleive is that Janeway is going to say "yeah, sure, fine" if the Doctor says he wants to go on tour as a pop star leaving Voyager stranded without a Doctor.
     
  20. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They don't have to give them the M class planets, they don't need to breathe.