Discussion in 'Voyager' started by NightJim, Feb 26, 2013.
I'd say yes. I believe a movie was made about it. The Termin...something
But Trek is woefully inconsistent with time travel and consequences thereof.
Children of Time says if you remove the past event the present consequences are gone.
Star Trek First Contact manages to have the Enterprise survive the alteration of the past even when Earth is handwave assimilated.
Then since this is Voyager episodes like Shattered and Relativity, without giving details since this is a first time thread, manage to have insane amounts of time travel and interactions with both past and future versions of themselves, without any consequences thereof.
Someone tries to do this in Continuum, exterminate someone's existence by killing an ancestor, and it doesn't work. We're left with three possibilities as to why. Either the timeline has shifted just by there being time travelers walking the street so the future you affect is not the future you came from OR someone wasn't honest about parentage and the person killed was not your blood ancestor OR it just doesn't work for reasons unknown.
Yeah people do what they like with time travel.. one day stepping on a butterfly wipes out a planet, the next day you can have tea with Hitler and lock him in a closet and nada happens.
I prefer the idea that you're out of the timestream so you can't be effected by any changes. So if the time traveller goes back to kill my grandfather (to kill me in a roundabout way), I'm erased, but if I follow then I don't get erased. Like Marty in Back to the Future keeping his memories intact (though him fading in the first film seems to totally go against that).
To me it's not a reset because Samantha knows HER baby died. Yes, the child in her arms is a miracle, a gift but she's "not" Sam's own. From this day forward, Samantha is a stepmom, the surviving twin who's left to raise the daughter of her heart, not the daughter SHE birthed.
Just like B'elanna knows that while this Harry looks like her buddy and has most of his memories, THIS Harry doesn't remember running down that corridor with her to seal the breach, he doesn't remember hanging from the ladder as a desperate B'Elanna stretched out her hand to save him. He doesn't remember B'Elanna's face when she failed him and Harry was sucked out into space.
This Harry, however, DOES remember successfully using the proton pulses to begin to heal their ship until HIS captain told them to stop. He DOES remember his ship being attacked and his friends dying. He does remember his Janeway ordering him to save himself and Ensign Wildman's baby. And despite doing as he was ordered, despite crossing from his dying ship onto this badly damaged Voyager, despite greeting his best friends in the process... he KNOWS this isn't right. THIS isn't his ship, isn't his Captain, isn't his B'Elanna.
And yet... it is, and they are.
As for Tuvix... I like how it set up the next ep... Resolutions.
How's that? I never saw any real connection. Though it's been awhile since I watched through Voyager.
Spoiler: Resolutions special connection to Tuvix
Even though Janeway is a murderer Chakotay still loves her and pledges to be her faithful manslave forever. It just makes it all that much more touching.
(I'm assuming the OP hasn't watched Res yet.)
I have a more cynical view towards this:
Spoiler: Resolutions Spoiler?
I love you! Please don't kill me!
Watched Resolutions a bit earlier than planned so the rest of you don't need to worry about Spoilers any more.
Damn that Tuvok, disobeying orders and cockblocking Chakotay. Another few days and Janeway would have gotten over her little protocol problems. I'd argue that the conversation with the 'ancient story' basically ended it, and it was left unsaid when they went back Janeway made it quite clear what happened on the planet stayed on the planet.
As for the connection to a previous episode, maybe not the one R.Star and Teacake are going for, more Deadlock. Everyone but Harry is willing to let the two of them go. They see the logical side of things, and it's Harry arguments that get them coming up with other ideas that can swing a more logical conversation with the new Captain. Harry, who just lost one crew, who really just watched everyone he's known for the last 2 years die, and is now in danger of losing the Captain who not only so heartily welcomed him two years ago, but also just a few months ago when 'his' captain died. Somehow, I think it'd be a much harder loss for him, having to face it again.
Deadlock did factor into that episode, Tuvok said that they just blew up a vidiian ship, and would probably be considered terrorists, but the twinning of Kim wasn't mentioned during Tuvok's ruminations.
Well, yes, there is that rather obvious link I may have overlooked. I just meant from Harry's state of mind.
Since NightJim has watched the ep, and since I don't know how to use them ANYWAY, spoiler tags are NOT in use.
Do you remember the tete e tete between pink night-gowned Janeway and Kes in the Captain's quarters?
KES: He said, he said that he loves me.
JANEWAY: Well, I suppose I can see how that's possible, given the circumstances.
KES: I wasn't sure what to say. At first, I was angry. But I know how he's trying to comfort me, and I know that he feels alone too. To tell the truth, he's a wonderful person.
JANEWAY: Do you have feelings for him too, Kes?
KES: No, I don't. I mean, how could I? I still love Neelix, and I'm not ready to give up on him, no matter what the Doctor says.
JANEWAY: I know how you feel. You're experiencing what people on this crew have been going through since we first got stranded in this quadrant. Do we accept that we're separated from our loved ones forever, or do we hold onto the hope that someday we'll be with them again?
KES: What do you do, Captain?
JANEWAY: Oh, I struggle with it every day. Sometimes I'm full of hope and optimism. Other times... I dream about being with Mark and it's so real. Then when I wake up and realize it's just a dream, I'm terribly discouraged. In those moments, it's impossible to deny just how far away he really is. And I know that someday I may have to accept that he's not part of my life anymore.
This scene is actually an excellent piece of foreshadowing for the whole Janeway / Chakotay dynamic that occurs in the very next episode.
It also shows one of the things about the Janeway / Kes dynamic that I loved, the way how Janeway could / would let her hair down around Kes. Tuvok may be the Captain's oldest, dearest friends, but he IS a Vulcan, afterall, and would hardly be a sympathetic ear for her to bend when her heart is challenged.
I dunno, she seemed to find Tuvok quite an emotional anchor at times which I think is what she was looking for. Not someone to rage and sob at but someone to always offer perspective.
I'm sorry, but I can't see discussing my lovelife with a hundred year old vulcan male who only gets hot every 7 years.
It was bad enough she ended up discussing it with the Doctor, but at least he's expressed an interest in the activity once or twice in the past.
well, Vulcans are actually deeply emotional. They experience very strong emotions, that's why they choose to supress them. And even though tey only go throug ponn far once every seven years that doesn't mean they don't experience love in between.
I would personally love to have a Vulcan to talk to about things.I think it would be great to have a perspective on things that is based purely on logic, without hopes fears or anything getting in the way.
I think Tuvok is the perfect person to talk to and take advice from when your emotions are a mess and you need a rock to hold onto. He is that rock..and I think thats what Janeway sees and appreciates. And like you guys said, since he is able to look at the situation objectively he can offer some other perspectives that Janeway couldn't/wouldn't see.
Btw, Tuvix is one of my favourite episodes...I think its astonishing that they wrote a character and found an actor to portray someone so likable in such an incredibly short time. Despite myself I found myself rooting for Tuvix in the end. I really was sad to see him go. He was such a unique character it would have been interesting to see him develop and adapt further.
I think Janeway wants to be de-hotted though so it doesn't get in the way of being captain.
You could always discuss it with Harry, I'm sure he's used to hearing all about people's love lifes while he languishes in the friend zone.
But then we'd get an episode of Kim thinking the Captain was coming onto him, and it end with him declaring the whole thing unfair that she's now ignoring him.
During season 1 I get the impression they were trying to do something with Kim and B'elanna, not necessarily romantic, but something, but close friends who can rely on each other. The whole 'Starfleet' nickname from Caretaker. But by season 2 it seems to be mostly forgotten except for the occasional writer would bring it up to sell a moment, but never actually give it decent screentime except when it was important, unlike the Kim/Paris friendship.
I always wondered something about Tuvix. He picked up the best qualites of both Tuvok and Neelix and was a sweetheart. But what if he picked up the worst from each. What if Tuvix had been a complete jerk? Would people have had any hesitation about getting rid of him? Would we still be discussing whether or not it was murder? Or would everyone have been happy to see him go and not given it another thought?
Separate names with a comma.