Spoilers VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Sho, Aug 20, 2012.

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Rate The Eternal Tide.

  1. Outstanding

    84 vote(s)
    47.7%
  2. Above Average

    55 vote(s)
    31.3%
  3. Average

    29 vote(s)
    16.5%
  4. Below Average

    2 vote(s)
    1.1%
  5. Poor

    6 vote(s)
    3.4%
  1. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Here Scout I am quoting your entire post to me since it seems to bother you when people reply without quoting.

    Thanks for applauding me and my wallet! That's great to know.

    Now to the bolded (by me) bits. I have said from day one I was protesting her death, that she was a minor character in Spirit Walk etc.. was not an issue to me. If she becomes a minor character in the rest of Relaunch from this point on is not an issue to me, I recognize that Relaunch has gone in a lot of directions that include new characters and not all characters get a major role in it. I have said many times that if they give her a desk job I will be content just to have her alive and back in Treklit land. That is ME, I don't speak for everyone. Saying that my agenda is not worthwhile because I didn't have a previous worthwhile agenda (protesting her lacklustre appearance in previous relaunch) just doesn't make sense to me.

    It also does not make sense to me that you even care about my boycott which you have gone out of your way to tell me was useless and made no difference to anyone.

    btw when I said that Kirsten commented I meant in these threads, and in the VOY forum thread where she came in and asked directly for feedback and questions about the future of Voyager relaunch. Had no one ever said a damn thing about Janeway being killed do you think she would be posting in the VOY forum to us and asking for feedback? She noticed there was a reaction from a segment of fandom and she very nicely engaged that segment of fandom in discussion. So yes, the boycott was noticed a helluva lot more than if no one had given a damn that she died.
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^But I think the unhappiness with Janeway's death would've been noticed just as much even if there'd been no boycott, if it had just been an active online debate. After all, the point of a boycott isn't to get attention, it's to attempt to cut into a company's profits as an incentive to promote a change in policy. If all you want is attention, then just expressing your opinions emphatically online can achieve that, and did achieve that. (After all, we've had similarly intense debates about Trip, about Data, about the quality of the 2009 movie, etc., and those have gotten plenty of attention without any boycotts being involved.) So whether or not there was a boycott would've probably made no difference in the actual response from Kirsten or Pocket or anyone. The only people you affected by boycotting the books was yourselves.

    And if anything, by not reading the books, you and others only hurt your position in the debates, because you weren't able to address the books' content in an informed way but were left making guesses that the people who had read the books knew to be wrong. You probably would've been able to make your points a lot more persuasively if you hadn't boycotted the books.

    I can understand being reluctant to admit that something you invested so much emotion in doing turned out to have no real impact whatsoever. But ultimately, the whole thing was pretty much unnecessary, if not counterproductive. The emotion was valid, but the boycott was not an effective or useful way of channeling it.
     
  3. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well I very much enjoyed my boycott. Did I think it was going to plunge Treklit sales into the gutter? No, LOLOL of course not. That was not the point. It was my choice what I spent my money on and I enjoyed choosing not to buy Treklit which I have at least 150 titles of, most bought new. It was a focus point beyond whining on the internet.

    I do not understand why something that detractors say was worthless and had no impact bothers them so much, enough to keep repudiating it online.
     
  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Well, I'm just having this conversation because I'm analytical by nature. I'm trying to evaluate the situation and offer what I think is the most likely interpretation of it. My analysis of the situation is that the discussion online is what Kirsten reacted to rather than the boycott, so I was simply offering that as a clarification of the matter (although I probably shouldn't speak for Kirsten). I wasn't trying to "repudiate," just evaluate.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
  5. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I've been very clear about what difference I think it made. Certainly just whining a whole lot may have achieved the same level of attention as far as internet discussion but the word "boycott" is a useful focal point and a useful rallying cry.

    One problem with these discussions, and I will probably piss someone off here, is that both sides of the discussion have had posts that cross lines and are either very rude or make accusations that could be seen as and may be false. Both sides can then focus on that and lump everyone into these categories.. I am a crazy BBKJ woman who accuses Pocket Books of conspiracies and you are a rude asshole who vents his anti KJ spleen in these threads. I don't think either of these things are true and I'm at times a bit bemused to find people responding to me as though I said every single thing that's been said on the topic personally.
     
  6. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    So the only way you could have possibly enjoyed the book was if Janeway was in it? Isn't that a little narrow minded? What about all of the other characters from the show, or new characters? What about Kirsten Beyer's skills as a writer?
     
  7. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Why in the world do you care what people enjoy? I'm sure there are things in Treklit you don't enjoy and no one calls you narrow minded.
     
  8. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, but I usually have more of a reason than one character not appearing. I just think it's sad to write off a whole book because one character doesn't appear in it.
     
  9. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Why is it sad that my reading taste has resulted in my choosing to not buy a book without a character? Other people don't read some series because they focus on characters they don't like, or are have too many new characters in them.

    I'm just confused at the emotive words used to describe my reading choices. It's not "sad", it just is.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Well, the character was in both Full Circle and Unworthy.
     
  11. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    First off, I don't think that "whining" is a fair characterization for discussing one's opinions on a public forum. After all, that's exactly what you're doing right here, so clearly you think it's a worthwhile endeavor in its own right. Do you consider what you're doing now to be "whining?" If not, why is discussing the content of the books any different?

    Second, I think that if "boycott" was a focal point, it was in a negative way. There were other ways of rallying interest and attention. Remember the "NOT. DEAD." meme generated and proliferated by protestors of Trip Tucker's death? Boycott is far from the only form of protest.


    That's a fair point. The extremists in any argument do have a way of dominating and co-opting it, and making people on the other side think that the extreme position is the only one.

    But I have to say, from where I stood, it was pretty clear that the BBJ extremists were the ones who first escalated to the point of namecalling and dishonest or grossly misguided allegations. And I think a comment someone made earlier may reveal why. They said something about Janeway having been under attack from the very beginning of the series, and I do know there's truth to that; there was some vicious, very sexist hostility directed against the character from the start. So it's possible that longtime Janeway fans have been fighting against that kind of aggressive negativity for a long time.

    But here's the thing: if you get into the habit of fighting, you can forget that not everyone is trying to fight you. And so if you assume someone is hostile when they really aren't, and you strike in what you perceive to be self-defense, then you're actually the attacker. I think maybe that's what happened here -- that Janeway fans so hardened by their battles against the sexist Janeway-bashers over the years saw the unrelated story decision to kill off Janeway as part of that same conflict, and reacted with their habitual force, which seemed like a bewildering and unprovoked attack from the perspective of the Pocket fan community, since we haven't been part of those past struggles. And when we reacted in what we perceived as self-defense (and defense of Pocket's editors and writers), the BBJ side again saw that as more of the ongoing attack and dug down further into the trenches, perceiving themselves as being under seige, when from our perspective, they were the ones who started it.

    There's a lesson there. All too often, a conflict is neither side's fault, or both sides', as they both assume they're the ones on the defensive and the other guys are the attackers. So sometimes it's important just to step back and stop fighting -- or at least to question one's own assumptions and try to make sure there's really something to fight over.


    Because those of us who've been reading Kirsten's books all along have found them to be among the best Voyager prose fiction ever written, and some of the best Trek fiction to come along in recent years, so we're sad for you in an empathetic way, because we feel you've been depriving yourself of something very enjoyable. Granted, the books were without one particular character you liked, but there were plenty of other things to enjoy in the books. Okay, maybe if you did read them, you wouldn't have shared our fondness, but maybe you would have, and in that case you would've been missing out on something you would've really liked. And it's natural to feel sad upon seeing someone else deprived of something positive. It's not "sad" in the sense of "you're a pathetic loser," but in the sense of, "ohh, it's a shame you're missing out on something this cool."
     
  12. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I read them. My boycott was about buying, not reading. For others it was about buying and reading. Just like GMO boycotts have a range of different choices.

    I don't think anyone's reading choices or buying choices are sad.
     
  13. rahullak

    rahullak Commodore Commodore

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    I don't believe this! Janeway's back and the militant BBKJs and anti-BBKJs are still at it?! :wtf:
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^I want to make it clear that I'm anything but an "anti-KJ." That kind of oversimplification is part of the problem with understanding here. I'm a Janeway fan, but I'm not a fan of resurrection as a rule -- although it can be done effectively if the right story comes along. And I'm emphatically not a fan of misrepresenting the facts. There's no justification for using falsehoods in defense of any position. My partisanship is for truth and accuracy, and if people misrepresent the facts in support of any position -- even, and perhaps especially, my own -- I will call them on it. Because supporting a cause with falsehoods only hurts it.
     
  15. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think you speak for everyone when you say it's all about being sad in an empathetic way because I have missed out on something. However I take your word for it, for you, that you meant it that way.

    Take heart! I have read everything except CoT which is on order.

    The best Treklit I ever read is still Terok Nor by James Swallow though :)
     
  16. Shane Houston

    Shane Houston Commander Red Shirt

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    So would you still think it sad if people said they wouldn't buy a Batman novel if they killed Batman but kept Robin? What if TPTB of a Batman series of novels did that but kept saying over and over again that as long as the story is good, the Batman novels will still be Batman because they'll still have Robin, Commissioner Gordon and Bruce Wayne's butler. And Batman will still be a huge part of it because he will be mentioned all the time so the fans of his death should just read the books and then form an opinion. And if they get over emotional about the death of a beloved main character then what does that matter? And TPTB of this new series of novels won't give a damn about my views or opinions as a customer but will still want my 8.99 to buy their damned books.

    When I buy a book with the title of Star Trek Voyager on the cover I expect it to have Janeway in it. She is the "Batman" to Chakotay's "Robin" Go ahead and think I'm silly or stupid, I don't care. But it seems to me that those who are accusing the BBJ crowd of certain bad behaviors should look in the mirror. For more than 4 years the people that have joined together to speak out about her death have been told your voice doesn't count. Pocket doesn't care about what you want because your views are only a small fraction of the reading audience. Your little boycott while entertaining to us won't ever matter there will always be someone out there to buy our product.

    There are some who think that their opinion and their opinion alone is the standing authority on this board and what they have to say about all things TrekLit stands. And these people are worse than the BBJ people (I include myself in that group even though I kept buying and reading the Voy relaunch books) because they never are open to changing their minds. They are never open to listening or respecting other people's opinions and people like the BBJ people should just shut the hell up because you're always wrong.

    Where was all this back and forth when the entire Enterprise book series was re-written just to bring back one dead character? Well he wasn't really dead because he was in a holodeck, wink, wink but we'll still base the series off of what written when the show was on the air. I remember TPTB at the time said they didn't like the direction that These Are The Voyages finale of Enterprise and took action to use the books they published to fix what they personally didn't like. The only different between those in charge of Trek novels at the time Enterprise was cancelled and the Bring Back Janeway people is that one group had the keys to the kingdom and one group didn't.

    The message is Editors and TBTP and writers always right. And us little old fans are always wrong because we're not smart enough or because we don't get our facts straight enough or don't represent an audience enough to make a difference. Just because you've made some money off of Star Trek doesn't make you more of a fan or more knowledgeable of the franchise than the rest of us. We love Star Trek too you know.

    I find that whole notion insulting.

    Trip NOT DEAD= a series re-write

    Janeway NOT DEAD= rabid fans

    I await the responses to tell me how wrong I am. As a Bring Back Janewayer I'm used to it.
     
  17. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly. I didn't mean that as a personal attack, I just think it's a shame that people were passing over some of the best Trek books in the last 5 or 6 yeas just because one character out of a fairly large cast wasn't in the books.
    I'm disappointed that Data is gone (for now?) from the TNG books, but I'm still reading them.
    I've just never understood how people could be so concerned with one character that they'd be willing to overlook the rest of the cast, and the quality of the stories being told.
    I could see if it were a show focused solely on that one character, with everyone else just supporting characters taking a backseat to that one person, but I've always thought of all of the 24th Century shows as focusing pretty equally on the whole ensembles. Even though I do have a handful of favorite characters, I'm still interesting enough in the rest of the characters that I have no problem reading books, or watching episodes that focus on characters other than them. With these kinds of stories I need to have more than one character hold my interest in order for me to stick with them long term.
    EDITED TO ADD:
    Actually they did exactly that a few years ago, and most of the reactions to those stories were fairly positive as far as I know. In one of the big events they killed off Batman, and following a conflict known as Battle For the Cowl, Dick Grayson took up the Batman identity, with Bruce's son as his Robin. They also killed off Captain America during Marvel's Civil War, and Bucky Barnes took on the identity of Captain America. I don't really see where this is any different than Janeway dying and Chakotay taking over as CO of Voyager. I don't understand why you people keep taking this so personally. I'm not saying that there is something wrong with you feeling the way you do, I just don't feel that way. When I say I find it baffling, I don't mean that I think there is something wrong with you, all I'm saying is that that it is so different from how I feel, and how a lot of other people around here seem to feel that I find it surprising.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
  18. Shane Houston

    Shane Houston Commander Red Shirt

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    You people? Who do you think you are calling me or anyone else "you people?" That..they way you just disrespected me is why we people take it personally. Because others have made it that way.
     
  19. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    What? How was that offensive? I just worded it that way because I knew you were mostly women so I didn't want to offend anyone by saying you guys.
     
  20. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Let's see.
    Janeway was resurrected.
    The 'Bring Janeway back' extremists are still going on with butthurt 'how much they are suffering' posts.

    Yeah....:rofl: