Voth vs. the Borg

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by davidant32, Aug 22, 2013.

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Voth vs. Borg

  1. Voth

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  2. Borg

    16 vote(s)
    48.5%
  3. Dunno

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Borg may also designate non dominant, but useful species... Possibly even non sentient beasts of burdens like massive dinosaurs or donkeys who can act as drones with out participating in the collective mental concensus. They could find 10 to a hundred usable species on any one planet, but then you have to remember that if they hit a commercial space trading station, they could access just a thousand species in an afternoon... And they give the designation BEFORE the species is completely assimilated.

    Why are the Ferengi Species 180?
     
  2. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    They were marked down from 199.99

    * exit, stage left *
     
  3. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  4. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Borg don't need to use a network, they choose to. Or at least, that would seem to be the case considering the use of transwarp in Descent.
     
  5. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    I think that method of transwarp is slower, at least from what I can gather

    the Voth seem to be able to cover tens of thousands of light years in very little time at all, whereas i think that still takes the borg months of time without use of a conduit

    could be wrong though
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, they need to use transwarp conduits.

    A transwarp conduit is like a train track.

    Any cube can use a preexisting conduit at rapid speed, or make a new conduit which slows transit down considerably. With forethought the Borg make conduits between many desirable locations and the 6 transwarp hubs in the milky way galaxy so that future Borg do not have to dick around.

    A transwarp hub is like a trainstation.
     
  7. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Why do so many people think the Borg are so badass. The Federation learnt to cope with them pretty quickly. They dominate the delta quadrant FFS.....a quadrant with the least impressive species in the galaxy that are easily assimilated....a quadrant where my gran could probably kick a lot of ass

    The Voth would crush the Borg, have a morning dump then a delightful breakfast
     
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But here's the problem... I think morally they can't because they must have something similar to the Prime Directive to stop them from dominating or manipulating all the younger races.

    Or maybe the Voth are so advanced they don't need to fight the Borg, they can break the collectives encryption and rewrite their programming at a whim.

    They could have placed limits on the Borg, to allow life in the Delta Quadrant to continue within reason, while allowing the Borg way of life seem to be autonomous within reason.
     
  9. Vanyel

    Vanyel The Imperious Leader Premium Member

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    Or the Voth care only for the Voth. Let them eat cake, they may say about other races facing the Borg.
     
  10. Lighthammer

    Lighthammer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Honestly, my impression is the Voth are just aloof --- they feel as though the Borg are so below them they aren't worth their time. We've seen they actively seem to discriminate against mammals in general and what are the borg primarily (as seen on screen at least)?

    As for why the Borg hasn't assimilated a lot of the races we've seen in the DQ, in another thread regarding the episode, "Living Witness" (S04E23), it was discussed why the Federation still hasn't reached the planet where The Doctor was some 900 years later and someone did a great calculation that proved it simply takes a very, very, very, very long time to explore, catalouge, make contact, open relationships and move on; and that's assuming a constant rate of expansion. If its not constant, or you got in a few wars along the way, it would set you back a few hundred years.

    The Borg are, no doubt, in the same boat.

    We know the only reason the Borg proactively scouted out the Alpha Quadrant because of the events of Star Trek Enterprise's Episode "Regeneration" (S02E24). If you want to go into Path to 2409, you can track it back to even more specifically to the events of the Columbia in "Gods of the Night"; we learned the origin of the Borg were because of a random mutation with the Caeliar species and a random strain of the Omega molecule.

    Though I'm not going to live in a fantasy world and claim TPTB had that much planned out, from a story standpoint, we could assert the ONLY REASON the Borg Ship was around the Federation to begin with was to:

    A.) Seek the distress signal sent by the Borg from Star Trek: First Contact

    B.) To discover more information about their own origins.

    C.) To discover more information about the Omega Molecule.

    Otherwise, there's likely no reason the Borg would have been in the Alpha Quadrant.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Predestination doesn't work like that often sometimes.

    New timelines are created with extra past that spins out a different future.

    So second time around in the new time line it seems like predestination, even though what's going to happen has absolutely no effect on the past since the poop that already went down was all tourists from a different timeline.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
  12. Lighthammer

    Lighthammer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, the only way this theory has held weight in traditional Science Fiction that would explain this away 'easily' (and lets be honest, no one in the Trek universe has yet dared try to tackle this one) is temporal fractal theory which is what Sliders is based on (hey, lets drag that series into another thread!).

    That is to say, the theory we'd have to work under is that every time a decision is made, the universe splits into parallel universes where there are only slight variations based on the quantum vibration of that universe.

    That would mean Admiral Janeway actually travels from a parallel universe to a very similar, almost identical universe and made her changes; though in theory, if we'd accept this to be true, Harry shouldn't have cared because the Temporal Prime Directive unless it also 'now' covers making adjustments in different quantum universes.

    I never quite liked this theory because String Theory illustrates the universe PROBABLY doesn't an infinite expansion room to keep plowing out new quantum universes each time someone makes a different decision would cause infinite expansion and would essentially explode the world out of Chell's Big Bang theory (no pun intended); I could see world changing decisions causing fracturing, but then even String Theory lends itself to the concept of intelligent design on some level at that point and although I'm not against the concept of God, that level of intelligent design just seems too "manipulative" to not be governed by an intelligence and seems like it has to fall under a set of rules we don't yet understand possibly having something to do with quantum cubits, natural splits, or something weird like that :-\

    But heck, lets take a step back and remember that according to modern time travel theory (this is real science, not sci-fi) to time travel, we currently believe you need to simultaneously reach absolute zero and absolute hot at the same time. If Janeway did manage to go back in time, realistically, she's a pile of ashes along with that Klingon ship that tried to follow her and Voyager is still really still stuck in the DQ :guffaw:
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well if they tried to travel through time in real space, sure. If you stay in regular space, one can't even travel faster than light. They obviously found a strata of subspace where it's common to reach absolute cold and absolute heat simultaneously... Possibly even "subtime".

    TNG Parallels.

    Worf does Sliders.

    How could you have forgotten Riker's MASSIVE beard?

    Quantum Realities are not the same as alternate timelines, since everyone from each quantum reality has different signature that thumb prints them from a specific quantum reality.

    The Mirror Universe from TOS and DS9 was possibly a Quantum Reality?
     
  14. Lighthammer

    Lighthammer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I actually was going to point out Parallels as case and point, but I managed to forget too, lol.

    I've always accepted the Mirror Universe as different quantum universes, honestly.

    As for warp, based on Einstein's theory and most other theories I am familiar and as far as I understand them (and by no stretch of the imagination am I physicists or even aspiring one), I've always understood that faster then light travel is possible but the amount of energy required pushes it into the "unfeasible" range. I've always just taken as a forgone conclusion that Star Trek has overcome this. Not to mention a recent article I read (I forgot where at this point) suggested there may be a great shortcut to warp travel making it more viable then space folding again.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It requires infinite energy to travel at light speed in ordinary space.

    The faster you go the more your mass increases the more energy you need to travel faster... Oh and time seems to be slowing down the faster you go, so to not go more slower the faster you go, you have to pile yet more planets into your boiler.

    Warp bubbles simulate a different version of space where the physics are different inside the bubble.

    You actually have to go to a different dimension to travel at transwarp.

    That has me suspect that a transwarp corridor is the opposite of a warp bubble. It's really a real space tube. Creating an area of real space inside transwarp space where we can exist without bad transwarpy things happening.
     
  16. Lighthammer

    Lighthammer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This is actually the best way I've seen it explained and this is in a round about way the way its largely explained in the TNG Tech Manual:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fPmCKt48Zw

    Michu Kuko had a highlight on new faster then light speed travels in a somewhat recent show (and hell, by somewhat recent, now that I think about it, it was actually last year around Halloween because I remember listening to it on the way to a haunt, but less I digress) but there are actually some really new theories that involve sting theory, though I don't think I can articulate them without burying myself in some wiki articles for a day or so (which mind you, I LOVE doing, but I need to see if I can remember which thread to start on and find some time!)

    IIRC the new theory doesn't actually have anything to do with pushing yourself outside the current space domain, or into a subspace domain (which now, I think we seem to be skeptical exists) where energy can either be expended at different levels or thrust requires less energy. It doesn't even involve playing around with excessive amounts of energy. It has to do with the whole idea that the universe is wrapped inside the quantum membrane and actually pushing against that on a quantum level to create speed similar to plucking the strings on a stringed instrument such as a guitar.
     
  17. DeepSpaceWine

    DeepSpaceWine Commander Red Shirt

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    Yes, from what we saw of the Voth, they were technologically superior to the Borg. I have suspected there may be reasons Borg space in Seasons 3-4 had borders where they were. *Something* is keeping the Borg from venturing much further outward from "Scorpion" space. The only people with fear of the Borg were that one Sakari mining colony that went underground. The Voth have so much the Borg would love to get their hands on, the Nyrians had advanced transporters (Borg transporters are only close range, Nyrians could teleport, albeit one at a time, over a distance of 10 ly). Nyrians also had some advanced tech with accessing computer databases across light years and decrypting it. And they are almost on the doorstep of the Borg there too. I suspect that something was the Voth broadly roaming across that band of space between the Nekrit Expanse and Borg space. As noted, they have been space faring for millions upon millions of years. The Borg Collective was very small 1000 years ago. They did seem to be growing rapidly of late though (probably critical mass with numbers and new technology acquired from others. That probably is what led to Arturis' race finally falling). We still haven't seen what the Borg might use those tactical cubes for, seen in "Unimatrix Zero" (I don't think it's merely precautions after Species 8472. Seven was familiar with it and the sense I got from it was that it wasn't some new invention). Each quadrant is huge. There are obviously races, some empires, more powerful than the Borg who, while they may lack the numbers, may have a technological edge over the Borg. It seems a bit naive to think the Borg may be the most advanced race in the galaxy. Most numerous... possibly.

    On the other side, the decisive Borg border seems to be 50~100 ly before the drop-off point in "The Gift". There's a transwarp conduit through part of the region (B'omar/"The Raven") but no other Season 4 race shows fear of Borg and later on, Seven if unfamiliar with some species (like the Dream Aliens, who most certainly would be assimilated because the Borg would most definately be interested in their Unconscious/Subconscious Collective). I suspect the Krenim form a barrier on that side. The Borg have advanced sensors. They likely could pick up all the temporal anomalies around Krenim space. Annorax was on a quest to get the empire back to 100%. If the Borg ever encroached on the Krenim Imperium, Annorax would have blasted the Borg world of origin out of the space time continuum. Their weapons and temporal science would obviously be of interest to the Borg but if the Borg detected races blinking out of existence, they might be cautious to venture there.

    LOL at people claiming they may be unworthy of assimilation. Some are, like the Kazon, but if races offer something, technological or physical (big dumb brutes were sometimes mentioned as making good tactical drones), they will be assimilated. Hard to tell what makes the Borg to go all in (like on the Brunali) vs. just casual assimilation (like the Norcadians). We've seen many races in Voyager with *something* worth assimilating. Even the annoying munchkins from "Virtuoso", the Qomar had something of value (complex algorithms, some of the most advanced mathematical skills seen in Star Trek). Interestingly, many of them apparently haven't been decimated by the Borg. Overall though, the Borg don't seem to explore very far from their transwarp conduits. That's how Brunali gets decimated but Norcadia and other worlds they casually assimilate some vessels from but don't go all out.

    BTW, all species get numbered. Even the Kazon had a number. Species number seems to not be species of value necessarily; it's the Borg catalog of species they encountered. Even some primitive societies had members assimilated (the ones with the Omega stories). The Borg probably assimilate the unlucky aliens who are the first the Borg have ever encountered of their race. Species 8472 was given a number and they obviously could not be assimilated.

    The thing about Borg space is I have wondered how many holdouts like Arturis' race were there? Races that were more advanced but besieged, fighting a gradually losing battle? And how many worlds of pre-warp civilizations or primitive societies are there in Borg space, left untouched because they don't have any real value or minerals to plunder (which was probably why those 2 Borg ships went to the Nekrit Expanse. Most planets encountered there were mining worlds and the Fair Trade station made mention of lots of mining colonies along the edge of the expanse. Remember, the Borg would also 'assimilate' non-lifeforms, non-technology, like worlds with desirable mineral resources. They were also after a very rare mineral to produce Omega particles).
     
  18. DeepSpaceWine

    DeepSpaceWine Commander Red Shirt

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    There's obviously a warp 10 barrier of some kind, though from that famous sawtoothed graph of energy expenditures at various speeds (Timo's site might have it?), it takes ever more power to get extra 9s added to warp 9.9999... . Many races tried to find ways around it. Transwarp conduits/corridors are one way (Borg), slipstream (Arturis) is another. It seems to be a tough nut to crack based on how rare that warp threshold is crossed vs. the sub-light: warp speed threshold. The Voth are the only race seen that have the most traditional transwarp, just the next step of regular warp.

    I still think the transwarp salamanders could best be explained by the 'rare' dilithium on those asteroids being part of a creatures' life cycle, which involves converting the bodies of desired donor material, in this case, advanced races (those capable of warp travel). We see the salamanders, but those could be the tadpole stage of some unknown adult stage or non-corporeal stage of the species (though with intra-species reproduction occurring in the salamander stage). Really, the only problem with "Threshold" was one word: evolution. Remove that, replace it with mutation or transformation and it doesn't look very different from "Identity Crisis". As noted so often, evolution occurs at the species level, not the individual level. And besides, why would transwarp salamanders be the suitable adaptation to being everywhere at once. That everywhere at once sounds almost non-corporeal and as the crew didn't see him on Voyager, it suggests Paris might have been everywhere, but he wasn't on this plane of existence. That dilithium, upon rewatching, just came off as so suspicious, a rare type of dilithium seemingly capable of getting up to warp 10. Imagine a race like the Kobali, who instead of using dead redshirts use space-faring races capable of trying to reach warp 10 as suitable genetic material, then transforming it into salamanders, who might be the caterpillars for some unknown butterfly or have these mediocre amphibian bodies on this plane but their minds are subspace titans or something. That episode struck me as if there was always more than meets the eye if we try to make sense of it (it's a silly exercise, but a fun one anyway :lol: . One of the things I love doing with Voyager, like the Equinox distance paradox and their very different journey)
     
  19. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    According to the novels, in every timeline except the one where the Destiny trilogy happened, the Borg assimilate the entire galaxy by the year 2600. Voth lose:p
     
  20. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Then apparently any Voyager episode with Captain Braxton never happened, as he was from the 29th century.