Visual Proof a Resdesign is a good thing

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Saratoga NX-3842, Aug 16, 2008.

  1. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    No, we shall not. The thread has been disrupted enough as it is. Anything further you feel needs to be covered can be done via PM.

    3D Master has provided instructions, though you could just as easily have worked it out yourself by consulting the appropriate section in the FAQ.

    Again, discuss the topic, or don't discuss it -- that I leave up to you -- but the squabbling stops here.
     
  2. Vektor

    Vektor Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My attempt at visual proof that [radical] redesign is not always necessary:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Your milage may vary.
     
  3. Gep Malakai

    Gep Malakai Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^That looks A. very cool, and B. still very 1960s. I doubt modern studio execs would go for it, even if such a design were presented to them.
     
  4. JuanBolio

    JuanBolio Admiral Admiral

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    Looks like a beautiful and functional starship, to me. Does it have to transform into a giant robot to look "modern", or what?
     
  5. Herkimer Jitty

    Herkimer Jitty Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, it needs neons everywhere, everything graceful has to be made to be made compeltely of straight lines, break up the hull with random patterns, the gaps of which you could fit an SUV into, kitbash some battleship parts, cut out parts of the hull and stick em in, then paint random triangle patterns all over it. And don't forget the random antenna clusters.

    Giant robot transformation is for the sequel.

    It would be... so... beautiful.
     
  6. Jimmy_C

    Jimmy_C Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Also note that each deck is literally right beside the walls of the turboshaft. I wouldn't be surprised if gravity could "leak" out of them, accelerating the turbolift as well as Jean-luc and the kids near the walls. The vector wouldn't be constant, but its magnitude would be about constant as well as a general "down" direction (as well as a slight nonlinear component towards the floor of each deck).

    Ya I'm rationalizing.... but it's just based on evidence from the show. I know the writers didn't consider this model, but I think it fits the observations better. :-D
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2008
  7. Gep Malakai

    Gep Malakai Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Hey, I said it looks cool. What more do you want? :p
     
  8. RedSpar

    RedSpar Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Simply stunning Vecktor! Great lighting!

    Some designs are simply timeless...Designs you simply can't make any better...

    -Ferrari GTB 275

    -Supermarine Spitfire/P51 Mustang

    -Eiffel Tower

    -Ford GT40

    etc, etc...

    The original Starship Enterprise is one of them. Iconic classic in every sense.
     
  9. Patrickivan

    Patrickivan Fleet Captain Newbie

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    I love how you've taked that beautiful ship and added all that detail. For a-far, it's clean and elegant, but when we get in super close, that's when all the detail shines! I love it! That is how it is supposed to be, and that's the kind of detail that makes her look so huge!
     
  10. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I like it a lot, but of course it's not what we're getting.
     
  11. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    What more can anyone add to that... it's sooo PERFECT.

    But don't forget the flapping wings! Those are CRUCIAL!
     
  12. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    Absolutely... and that's what I've always meant when I've said that the DESIGN works fine, but it could be presented with an additional level of "polish" which we could just assume never showed upon on our 1960's TV screens. Sort of like you were always watching the show without glasses and now you're wearing your proper prescription for the first time.

    The design works fine. The problem is that there are people who've got a mental association of that as being related to an earlier time (even though, as far as I can see, there are no actual physical features that do so, just the "recognition factor" and the psychological connection)

    These same people tend to have the same emotional/psychological connection to the styles used in more recent (not I'm not necessarily saying "more modern," just "more RECENT") shows. Lots of primary-color glowing, lots of "graphic arts" detailing without any evident logic behind it, lots of mechanically-impractical (or even mechanically harmful) "notches" and so forth... lots of exposed external hardware... etc, etc.

    Now, it's interesting that (as much as I prefer the design style of the original), the new BSG series is actually much closer to TOS trek style than to more recent style in at least one MAJOR area. In the new series, everything on the ship is behind hull panels... in "shirt-sleeve maintenance" environments, not in a vacuum. The detail you see on the main ship is all based upon heavy armor plating, or upon structural "ribbing" which would, ordinarily, have been beneath that armor. Which is very much in line with MJ's original design intent for the 1701. But is NOT the "modern" look which so many people seem to want to see, with lots of exposed plumbing and so forth (which, for the record, is no more "modern" than the MJ approach... after all, that style mainly dates back to "2001," doesn't it?).

    We really have five models for spaceship design.

    1) The "real space program" model... base things off of existing technology or technological trends.

    2) The "naval" model... which is what TOS Trek used.

    3) The "space trucker" model... used in Alien, as well as in the Star Wars films, and which is the only way to describe Serenity. Visually cool to look at, and it feels "real" (since it reflects stuff we're all already familiar with) but not necessarily logical or practical.

    4) The "freakily cool" model... stuff that has no connection to any sense of logic we're supposed to be able to grasp. This would be stuff like the Shadows or Vorlons on B5, or Moya, or so forth. This works, depending on the situation... but it's only workable in very specific sorts of scenarios.

    5) The "graphic arts" model... this is similar to the above #4, in that there's no connection to logic or function which we're supposed to grasp, and the shapes and structures and so forth are there purely because they "look cool." But while #4 works... it's supposed to tell the audience "this is beyond anything you can understand, so don't even try"... for something like Trek that's not really something you want, is it?

    I'm a huge proponent of the "naval model" for Trek. But in recent years, Trek has moved away from that and moved into the final category from above.

    It's the "naval model" which is getting described as "old-style" and the "graphic arts model" which is getting described as "modern." But neither is more or less "modern" than the other, and both have been in use for ages.

    It's worth pointing out that the ancient "Flash Gordon" serial ship designs (Buster Crabbe, not the more "modern" takes) have more in common with the "graphic arts" approach which is currently being billed as "modern" than with the supposedly "old fashioned" naval model.
     
  13. Vektor

    Vektor Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, it’s not what we’re getting, but I hold out hope that what we’re getting may be a lot closer to the original than most people think.
     
  14. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That would be nice. I think the only way that it might be possible, though, is if there's more than one version of the ship in the film.
     
  15. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    Well, we DO know that the film will, at the very least, be set in multiple timeframes. And if it really is about "altering the timeline" (blech, IMHO), well... we could have dramatically different versions of "the" Enterprise in the same movie.

    It's not unreasonable to assume that the ship we saw in the trailer might be the ship as it's intended to be seen in the film... but it's also not unreasonable to assume that it might have been put together specifically for the trailer.

    Do we know, for a fact, that the same people doing the FX for the movie did the trailer? Or could this trailer have been "subcontracted?" Happens all the time in other fields... and we see plenty of FX houses doing work even on a single film. So is it possible that what we saw there is "studio A's" take on a sequence which will never even appear on-film, while "studio B" is doing the stuff which we'll see on-screen?
     
  16. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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  17. ST-One

    ST-One Vice Admiral

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    I think that, besides the gerneral shape, this new Enterprise will look quite a bit different than the one we all know and 'love' - at least if they stick with what was hinted at in the teaser.

    I doubt that the creative team would redesign the sets, uniforms, insignias and that shuttle just to give us a far too familiar 'new' Enterprise.
     
  18. Vektor

    Vektor Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not at all convinced that the ship we saw in the teaser is the one we're going to see in the movie. There are a number of things in the teaser to suggest that the 3D model was built either somewhat hastily or without a fully refined blueprint. I also question whether or not the design for the ship had been locked down--or even seriously begun--that early in the production schedule. Perhaps it was, I really don't know, but the trailer was finished several months before they even began principle photography, let alone post production, and that leaves a lot of time and opportunity for further changes.

    As for the creative team and their desire to change things, at least one of the items you mention, the uniforms, has apparently turned out to be far more authentic than practically anyone ever thought they would be.

    J.J. Abrams is the type of person who likes to defy expectations and do things his own way regardless of conventional wisdom. Almost everyone out there is saying that he would NEVER use anything close to the original Enterprise design in the new movie, but I wouldn't put it past him to damn well do it anyway.
     
  19. gastrof

    gastrof Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As said once before when someone presented a similar "updating", I can't see any differences, and this is from one of the "CHANGE NOTHING!" people.

    If JJ did something like this, I'd be fully satisfied.
     
  20. gastrof

    gastrof Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The uniforms look nearly identical to the originals.
     

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