Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Dukhat, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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  2. Mark_Nguyen

    Mark_Nguyen Commodore Commodore

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    Good work. If you have this level of detail for ships you "despise", I'd like to see you try out a ship you actually like. ;)

    And I'm one in favor of Starfleet having built ships in batches over the years with relatively minor exterior modifications. There's plenty of precedent in real life; the ten Nimitz-class carriers were launched from 1972 to 2006, over the course of 34 years; the Gerald Ford class carriers that will replace them will be built over an even longer period of time. The first Arleigh Burke class destroyer hit the water in 1991 and the class is still being built in the US (with variants built in Japan and South Korea). And the F-4 Phantom was built from 1958 to 1981, with examples of the plane still flying in air forces around the world.

    Plenty of reason to believe that Miranda class starships were built in several batches (or "flights" in US Navy parlance) as the need arose. they would be outwardly similar in appearance but the innards could be significantly upgraded with each batch, and to older ships of the class if need be. The aircraft carriers Intrepid and Midway are two examples of old ships that were rebuilt several times over their service life despite having the same basic shapes (angled flight decks nonwithstanding). So, the Brittain could have a relatively modern bridge despite being a module plugged into a hull that was 40+ years old.

    In any case, it's still a great summary of the models' usage over the years. Hope you do tackle the Excelsior class at some point. Maybe you hate it, but it's one of my all-time faves mostly BECAUSE it's been seen so much. :)

    Mark
     
  3. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Mark:

    Thanks for the nice words. I am planning on writing a final essay on the Excelsior, but only for the appearances of either the Bill George model or the Greg Jein version (not the CGI version, which we saw millions of times in DS9).

    As for the idea that Starfleet, like the Navy, builds ship classes in batches: Funny you should mention that. One of the reasons why I stated writing these essays was because they were part of a larger project of trying to determine what the conjectural Starfleet classes would look like based on registry numbers, construction times, etc. While I haven't completed that essay, I did finish a rather involved hypothesis of how Starfleet assigns numbers, based on both a chronological scheme and a "batch number" scheme. The result? The batch number scheme tends to make more sense. I can post that too if anyone would like to read it.
     
  4. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    About the Brattain -

    I am leery about assigning years to stardates, unless I am capable of reaching a point beyond debate that, yes, this stardate belongs to this year.

    We know that this starship was commissioned on stardate 22519.5. However, we don't know what year this is. I have seen 40217.3 applied to 2355 ("The Battle") and 38325.3 applied to 2296 ("The Child"). I think it can be said with certainty that the Brattain was commissioned sometime in the 24th century; other than that, it's speculation. (I think people assumed that 22519.5 is in 2245 because we know that 23589.7 ("Sins of the Father") occurred in 2346, but this is really speculation, in my opinion.)
     
  5. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Throwback:

    That was my original intent for the Brattain when I surmised a chronological registry scheme: That there's no way the ship could have been constructed in 2345, for several reasons, one of which is that two ships with registries of 3XXXX and 4XXXX (the Intrepid and Wyoming, respectively), were already in service when the ship was built. Therefore I surmised that the stardate on the dedication plaque was just incorrect, or from a different, older stardate sytem than the current TNG version. There is evidence the system changed at some point, such as with some of the dates you mention.

    However, with a batch number registry scheme, it could possibly work (at least, based on the batch number scheme I personally came up with, based on several factors). I will post it separately.
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Minor nitpick: The registries found on the Bozeman are NCC-1941 and NCC-1841, not NCC-1942 as you have in the chapter header.

    Regarding the stardates, we should probably distinguish between "launch" and "commissioning" here - both expressions have been used on dedication plaques, and might carry different meanings.

    "Commissioning" is always good, because it has historically been the practice to decommission a ship when she enters a long period of maintenance or modification, and recommission her at service re-entry. 23rd century ships could then plausibly have late 24th century commissioning dates, reflecting and emphasizing their "zero-houring" as the result of the refit.

    "Launch" could carry the same meaning of "relaunch", but isn't quite as satisfactory thus reinterpreted. Perhaps Starfleet uses "launch" (the first physical deployment of the ship, before the first commissioning) on those ships that have only been commissioned once, and "commission" to denote the most recent commissioning on those ships that have spent some time decommissioned already.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    According to the two dedication plaques used for the Enterprise-D, this ship was launched on SD 40759.5 and commissioned on SD 41025.5.

    I don't think it's possible at the resolution we have now to identify the registry on the under side of Bozeman's saucer..
     
  8. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Quite so. Waiting for better pics... But even with the motion blur considered, the significant digit does look very much "filled in" to me, an 8 rather than a 9. The blur doesn't similarly thicken the lower part of the 4.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  9. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Thanks for the catch. I've corrected it and uploaded the updated version. Since the registry was an homage to Steven Spielberg's "1941," I've just settled for that registry, and I'll wait until we have better pics before adding the second registry.

    While this information is all fine and good (and possibly even true for such ships as the Brattain), until I have official information to this effect, I'm assuming for this essay that the date on the dedication plaque is the date the ship was originally built and/or commissioned. If someone (say, like Mike Okuda) went on record to state that the Brattain was built in 2295, then decommissioned in 2335, and then recommissioned in 2345 with a new registry number, then I'd be the first one to agree with his stance. But since that's unlikely to happen, I'm just going to go under my previous assumption.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  10. Unicron

    Unicron Continuity Spackle Moderator

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    I agree. I also think that Starfleet would have the advantage of longer lasting technology (I think Dukhat has a valid complaint about the models being reused so often for budget reasons, but we don't know how long an "average" lifespan for a design may be in Trek's era) and that it's cheaper in resources to modify an existing design to build a new one from scratch, even with resources like replicators.

    I've found where there are several sources in potential conflict over a design (like FASA having two separate variants of the Oberth model, with different names since that designation didn't exist), there are ways to make things fit together seamlessly or mostly fit. FASA first refers to the Grissom as being a Gagarin class, after the cosmonaut, and then mentions an improved Sagan subclass to represent TNG's era (Tsiolkovsky started in this class). The Oberth can be a third refit/variant and the Tsiolkovsky could have been refitted to it in keeping with the canon information.

    Same thing with the Avenger/Miranda class issue. Since the Miranda designation wasn't added until TNG, one could assume it refers to older ships that have been modified or refitted and which started out as Avenger types. FASA's Reliant class cruiser variant, based off its own Anton class science cruisers, is a bit trickier (Ships of the Star Fleet had the Miranda/Avengers being descendants of Coventry/Surya TOS frigates), but one could argue Starfleet was working on both at the same time and the Reliant/Anton refit was intended as more of a general ship and not necessarily for tactical duties, where the frigates would have an emphasis.
     
  11. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    I sort of doubt official information to any other effect is ever forthcoming. :)

    There are two main ways to mess with the information against official or implicit author intent: reinterpreting the meaning of "commissioning", and reinterpreting stardates. There's no onscreen reason to do the first, except in one's own perverseverse to rationalize these things. But there's always "Dark Page" where an in-your-face, low five-digit stardate clearly doesn't follow the pattern set in TNG and other spinoffs for the late 24th century. Perhaps the early 24th really was differently marked in terms of stardates?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    I find, for myself, it interesting that there has never been a stardate in the range 10000 to 20000. I don't why this is.

    Then, we have the SD 38774 (2264) for Tuvok's birthday.
     
  13. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    In general, one gets surprisingly consistent results if one treats the four-digit stardates of TOS as merely truncated five-digit or six-digit ones. The difference would be the same as between "the sixties" and "the nineteen-sixties"...

    Could 38774 fall on 2264, in terms of this interpretation? Well, the "22" part would depend on the dropped first and second digits in a putative seven-digit date, so no problem there. The "sixties" part would depend on the 3. Not a good match for the twenty-four-sixties, where this digit is 4 for years 2264 through 2273. (Or perhaps 2263 through 2272, depending on the month when stardates roll over.)

    The "year four within the decade" part would in turn depend on the 8. In TNG, year four is directly associated with the stardate 41986 in the episode "The Neutral Zone"...

    So... SD 38774 could plausibly be for example the TOS year 2251, but not 2264, not per this system.

    Then again, the stardate comes from "Unimatrix Zero" where Tuvok is slowly being assimilated and going crazy - whereas the birth year 2264 comes from "Flashback" where Tuvok insists he was 29 years old in 2293, during events he is grossly misremembering anyway, due to an alien entity messing with his brain. Not too difficult to dispute either number, or both. :devil:

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Commander Red Shirt

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    Interesting article.
    Can't wait for your Excelsior article.
    Or perhaps of the Galaxy class, my favorite class? :p
     
  15. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Thanks, but I'm not going to write an essay about the appearances of the Galaxy class, because it appeared in every single episode of TNG, one movie, and a smattering in DS9 and VOY (unless you mean instances of the Galaxy class that didn't represent the Enterprise-D).

    And really, the intent of these essays (besides just writing them for fun), is to show how many guest starships were intended to be quite different than the old movie models the budget forced them to use. That's why I was hoping that TNG-R would have the same VFX changes that TOS-R had, so that some or all of those models would be replaced with newer CGI designs. In retrospect I'm actually glad that the original film elements are being used instead of CGI, but it resulted in my having to cut portions out of my Oberth essay where I speculated what kind of new ships could be substituted for the old ones. Oh well...;)
     
  16. Unicron

    Unicron Continuity Spackle Moderator

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    You could always do one on the Klingon BOP model, which was often used in cases where an original design had been planned, and which has such fun scaling issues.

    :biggrin:
     
  17. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, for the most part there really wasn't any specific type of Klingon ship that the scriptwriters really needed, so using random K'T'inga and BoP stock footage and new BoP model shots really wasn't that big a deal (except of course for their antiquated designs, which mirrored the uses of the Excelsior, Miranda, and Oberths with Starfleet). The only two times I can think of where different ships were clearly needed was with the K'Vort class in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and the absolutely ludicrously oversized BoPs in "The Defector." The thing is, they could have easily solved both of those issues without even spending any more money: They could have re-used the Promellian ship (with a green color added in post), just like they did for Noggra's ship in DS9. Judging by the size of the ship when docked at the upper pylon, that ship is huge. And one could even get away with saying that the model even looks vaguely like a Klingon ship.
     
  18. t_smitts

    t_smitts Captain Captain

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    I think it's safe to say that in the case of the Miranda, Oberth, Excelsior, and probably a few others, ships would be continued to be built well into the 24th century.

    On top of that, Starfleet seems to build a lot of its ships to last: The Constellation-class Hathaway was 80 years old. The Miranda class Lantree was at least that old herself, judging from her registry and fact that she was listed on Operation Retrieve in ST6. (By contrast, the carrier Enterprise, just retired, is fifty years old, older than any ship in the US navy except the Constitution, and was originally designed for a service only half that that).

    In other words, I don't find anything wrong with vessels of these classes with higher designations, most of the time. (One exception would be the Melbourne in "Emissary", with his 6xxxx registry, which is more suited to the Nebula-class it was originally supposed to be).

    And I think you gotta cut them a LITTLE slack in terms of reusing models. They're pretty darn expensive and time-consuming to make (money and time being two things you never have enough of on a TV series). Ideally, for example, I would've liked a new design for the Bozeman, but this was a class specifically said to be retired 80 years ago. How much mileage would they really have gotten out of it on TNG or DS9?

    No, the refit Constitution was never used on any of the shows (apart from a kitbash in the Wolf 359 scene that few people would spot on their own), but I wonder if it wasn't simply a case of not wanting to use the "hero ship" from the movies on the show (just as we never saw any Sovereigns fighting in any Dominion War battle scenes).

    Moreover, I think they were pretty good at introducing some new designs in later years. Besides our hero ships (Defiant, Voyager, and the big "E"), we got the various First Contact ships (especially the Akira), the Centaur, the Prometheus, the Dauntless (sort of), and the Equinox.
     
  19. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    True, but probably not right up to TNG, which is what is implied with the Oberth class.

    Agreed that ships were built to last. But that wasn't quite what I was arguing. My point was: Why continue to construct outdated ship designs when other, more advanced ship designs were being constructed and built at the same time? One doesn't build Ford Model-Ts and Ford Focuses concurrently.

    There are actually two instances of Excelsiors being used in place of more advanced ships: the aforementioned Melbourne, and the Crazy Horse (listed as a Cheyenne class ship in the Encyclopedia, but later shown to be a Hood-stock footage-Excelsior, and the 5XXXX registry was not changed).

    Actually, the original rationale for not building other Starfleet ship models was that the producers didn't want to spend any more money on them if the show ended up getting cancelled after one or two seasons. That's a bit different than saying that they just didn't have the money. They certainly had the money to build things like the space jellyfish ship, the Edo God, the Ferengi Marauder, the Terellian ship, the Atlec ship, the Romulan Warbird, and the Pakled ship. As for the Bozeman, see next quote.

    The Connie refit in BoBW wasn't a kitbash - it was the actual feature film model used for the Enterprise's destruction in Star Trek III. And your "hero ship" hypothesis notwithstanding, I'm still not sure why the VFX guys didn't simply use the refit as the Bozeman, if they originally wanted to use a Constitution class ship anyway.
     
  20. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    This is less sure, but the Atlantis from "Conspiracy" might have been an Excelsior-class Starship. This is based on the fact that a diagram of this class appeared in the mission orders for this ship. Well, anyway, this ship had a registry of NCC-72007. So, it's possible that Starfleet was still making these ships as late as the 2360s.

    DS9 had the opportunity, when they switched to CGI, to create new ship classes for the battle sequences. Instead, they simply created new models out of the existing models and added a few designs from ILM. So, there must have been a reason, other than budget, that the producers decided to reuse the old models.