Updating FJ's technical manual?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Warped9, May 17, 2013.

  1. GSchnitzer

    GSchnitzer Co-Executive Producer Moderator

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    Interestingly, the actual scripted line in "Court Martial" (it's Kirk's line, not Spock's) was "one to the tenth power"--which, scientific notation-wise, isn't really any better. But all in all, it seems to be a scripting error, not any actor delivery error.
     
  2. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    No, that would still be wrong.

    By the convention of principle values, whereby one branch of a multi-valued function is selected to avoid ambiguities, exponentiation is a single-valued function.

    Under that convention, one raised to any power, fractional or otherwise, is still one.

    On the other hand, negative one, when raised to a fractional power, is complex and can be purely imaginary. For example, negative one raised to the one-half power is the imaginary unit, but positive one raised to the one-half power is still just plain old one.

    (Note that (-i)^2=-1 also, but the selection of principle square root means that (-1)^(1/2)=+i unambiguously.)

    Besides, he (and, it was Kirk/Shatner) still said one to the fourth and not one to the one-fourth. But even if he had said one to the one-fourth, the value would still be one (by the convention of principle values).

    Interesting idea, actually, but there's just no (reasonable) way to make lemonade out of these particular lemons. It's really just Treknobabbly gobbledygook in this case, I believe.

    Ah, yeah, that would make perfect sense. Yeah, making the blueprints out to be plans of the Constitution was a perfect loophole.
     
  3. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What if he is referring to a base one calculation using the versor algebra I linked to above?
     
  4. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Dollard's just adopting a multi-valued convention, with quaternions. In this context, of sound amplification, it's still just gobbledygook.
     
  5. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    This is the spoken dialogue: "By installing a booster, we can increase that capability on the order of one to the fourth power."

    Since "one to the fourth power" equals "one", here is the translated dialogue: "By installing a booster, we can increase that capability on the order of one."

    "An order of one" magnitude is a x10 increase in capability, if we assume Kirk meant an "order of magnitude".
     
  6. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    If you're going to bend over backwards to read it that way, then "to the fourth power" is still completely superfluous.

    Which is the point. It's only there to sound technical. It's like a prop, but in dialog.
     
  7. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    The translation seemed obvious to me <shrugs>. The only bending over backwards was quoting the text in several easy to follow steps to see where the dialogue ended up going. I only wish I looked at this earlier instead of assuming this was an absurd bit of dialogue :) Bad, as in clunky, yeah.

    So does that mean the dialogue went from not absurd to a prop? :) Maybe he just wanted impress his old girlfriend. :D
     
  8. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    No. I'll repeat with explicit emphasis:

    It's only there to sound technical.​

    It is meaningless.

    Props are there to make the scene look like it takes place in the future, even though the props aren't from the future.

    This dialog is there to make it sound like technical jargon is being spoken, even though none is. The average viewer probably isn't very good at math (not that good) and can't tell the difference, anyway. From that point of view, the dialog's perfectly effective and isn't something the writers, actors, or director need to sweat.
     
  9. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    The double-speak is meaningless since it only equals one.

    But the dialogue itself still indicates an increase in capability - so it isn't completely meaningless. Just sayin'

    Yes, why were we even focusing on this dialogue anyway? :)
     
  10. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    I brought it up as an example of what canon to filter out/tweak, when compiling a TM.

    The intent is, as you say, clearly that the sound is amplified. They simply needed to say something like this:

    Perhaps the intent was to increase the sound by four orders of magnitude, but that's not at all what came out. Really, the actual number should have been irrelevant.
     
  11. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Or more accurately, "By installing a booster, we can increase that capability by 10 times."

    And all this time I just thought they meant one. Heh :)

    I say leave the dialogue alone and just put a footnote that it was just pretty clunky. IMHO.
     
  12. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yes, I meant to write Constitution, not sure how that happened but oh well.

    On second thought, I think I know how it happened; I was in a hurry and typing too fast and mangled "Constitution" into something like "Constition" and then used spell check, and just clicked on whatever option it gave without double checking to make sure that was the right word I wanted to use, and it turned out to be the wrong one? So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2013
  13. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Even just ten times (one order of magnitude, in base ten) isn't enough though to amplify heartbeats that much. Maybe that's why they tried to change it at the last minute.
     
  14. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I brought 1^4 back up because it was infinitely more interesting than the endless ahistorical whining about how little fidelity Franz Joseph showed to TOS, despite the fact that the transcripts Greg Tyler has compiled at Trekplace are literally filled with references revealing where the man had bent over backwards to stick closely to what Roddenberry wanted and was complimented and rewarded by Roddenberry for doing so. This thread long ago became about a half dozen or so people trying to prove a point to one person who will not allow himself to have anything proven to him whatever the evidence.

    So figuring a way to make 1^4 sound sensible just seemed more interesting.

    Sorry.

    :devil:
     
  15. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Dunno. If we knew what the starting capability of the internal sensors were then I could agree. All we know is an order of magnitude increase was all that was needed.

    @aridas sofia - an order of 1 to the fourth power could easily mean 1 order of magnitude or x10. So the dialogue does have meaning. As to how much it dives into technobabble territory that apparently is up for debate. :)
     
  16. Godblessed1701

    Godblessed1701 Ensign

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    id just like to say that this here reminded me of a real world bitchin problem i had with 1701-d. see for the first few eps i kept a wondering where all the parties had gone. see back in the old dayz they were a like in every ep. so eventually some dude a tapped me on the shoulder and explaind it to me about picards ship and no parties. see he a told me that they were re-named 'away teams' and that there replaced 'landin parties'. so that got a me a thinking that mabye somewehre along the ways 'emergency bridge' kinda replaced 'auxiliary control' and lesse going by mr. joseph 'command intelligence' be another name for 'science station' which be another name for 'library computer station' on the big bridge.

    fac t be, me a hangin with the get-a-lifers techno gurus a told me that names change and differnet thing can a mean the same. for instance toilet be water closet be head be rest room be shithouse.

    and golly be me, mr. josephs manual dont show us them there pajama uniforms from the motion picture neither. so to maybe 9 people right here on this here thread mr. joseph be a fuckin-wrongo. just liek hed be for using alternate rank braid specs though they kinda to me look like theyd be chronologically between tos and tms. course i dont know this i only know what the get a lifer geeks a tell me. they swear by mr. josephs works and they are holy bird (peace be with him) affiliated workings.

    and the ways i see it, 40 years be a wee bit too late to go and change something which inspired many a get a lifer geek to write countless prints manuals and other nerd-readins. and besides they appeard in no less than 3 of the screen flicks i paid good money to see.

    fact be had these get a lifers a herd of yous sayin youd wanna rewrite such awesome books they a come a whomping and blasting about it. cause they live for it.
    it merely takes, they tell me, education in the realms of tech fanin. you gotta buy the follow ups. you gotta read between the lines. you gotta remember its a changin uinivese and uniforms, signias, ship designs, change. if the graat joseph made an error another fan comes a long and tells me its a variation not an error. like there be more than one model of phaser in existence thru the fed across time and space dudez.
     
  17. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    ^^ All very well except FJ's Emergency Bridge doesn't look anything like the Auxiliary Control we saw numerous times onscreen. And nothing in his plans looks anything like Auxiliary Control. So he fabricated his Emergency Bridge whole cloth with no foundation for it.
     
  18. Godblessed1701

    Godblessed1701 Ensign

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    this here discussin came up about auxiliary control and the emergency bridge at a technocon i sneaked into years ago. fact be they say that mr. joseph was an aerospace deisgner with some knowldge of military designs and how there be certain realismz and consistencies between command centers. i dont remember all of it but they said mr. joseph wanted plausiblity more than a borg-like attention to certain set deisigns that be limited by budget. them nerds were a sayin that locating an emergency bridge with computer banks and in the center of the ship was the most believable element of any ship design be it now or in the 23rd centrury. these here same get a lifer folks told me his blueprints represented the enterprise as she would have appeared following the 3 aird seasons. it be a composite of sorts of differnt models plus logical deductions. see there be this book a called 'the makin of star trek' which summarized the ships decks and it was the basis for the blueprints. they be both approved of by the bird (peace be upon his soul) so like one builds upon another. or so they a tell me. i dont know what to believe no more. but these guys were all techno gurus of some learnin. all tos could afford was one lamo console and some grillwork to depict auxilary control. mr. joseph a took it a step beyond. so the addition of more consoles and more bridgey-likness be 'logical' they say. im also a told this be why he placed it on deck 7 stead of deck 8: it be better protected and it be stated in that book. so them geeks a take it to be an upgrade. i think they called the new breed of constituion an archernar, and that be a step up from what they termed a bon homeboy configuration design representing the series ship. they again told me that the defiant be built originally a bon homeboy class starship of this particular design which be what the other constitutions be refitted to. that be the production design of the series. i know it sounds confusin and it hurts my brain cellz from the inside out but i'm just a messenger a relayin to you what they geeked about for years and years down there in that stinkin bar with their posters and proejctions on walls. they also a said them names for them classes come from mr. josephs manual which in turn a came from 'the makin of star trek' and some production note or other. they a told me this be the way of the tech fandim gurus who truly respect the very roots of technogeekdofandomo.

    yous take it up with them. they a tell me they wont a set foot here cause there be a curse on this here trek bbs. haunted by bad souls, bad vibes, and evil forcez that work against the intelligent minded men and women who kept to the core of mr. josephs teachins. being a man of god and a true godfearin xtian i truly believe them and i respect them wishes. indeed i only set foot here myself because i aint no nerd and because i be on a mission.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    James Dixon posts are always entertaining, but there's nothing of actual value in them. :lol:
     
  20. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Uh...yeah.

    But back on point: on this issue FJ deliberately ignored a well established fact of the ship as seen onscreen. I'm not giving him a pass on this one.