United Earth? No Thanks.

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by ZapBrannigan, May 8, 2013.

  1. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    The EU started out as an Free Trade Area, I suspect most people in the EU don't object to a Free Trade Area, the question is to they want a political union.
     
  2. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    From the outside looking in, it seems to me that you're both right and you're both wrong.

    The European Union is absolutely powerless in some areas -- it has no capacity, for instance, to make or prevent its Member States from going to war. Hence the United Kingdom invading Iraq while France and Germany oppose it.

    But in other areas, the E.U. is very powerful and has a noticeable democratic deficit. In particular, it now has virtual veto power over any of its Member States' governments if that Member State needs a loan from the E.U. as a result of the Great Recession -- in particular, this means that the E.U.'s most economically powerful Member, Germany, has veto power. So you have a situation where, say, the people of Greece may as a majority support one particular guy to be P.M. or one particular piece of fiscal policy, but if the Bundestag doesn't like it, then the Greek government doesn't do it.

    And of course, there's the classic dilemma over the division of fiscal and monetary policy between the Member States and the E.U. itself, which is unsustainable in the long run.

    I'd suggest that the end result is that in the long run, the European Union will either have to give up many of the sovereign powers its Member States have delegated to it (and thus become just another regional alliance), or will have to become itself a sovereign, democratic state in which all the people of Europe have equal say.
     
  3. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    :lol:

    I see you drank fully the excuses of local politicians who shifted the blame to the EU for their shenanigans and fuck-ups.

    That's not to say the EU doesn't have its own problems and fuck-ups, but "Soviet-style bureaucracy"? Come on.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2013
  4. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^^^
    Just let me quote the former Czech President Václav Klaus, one of the few decent politicians in Europe:

    We got rid of Moscow and got Bruxelles instead.

    So true.
     
  5. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Vaclas Klaus? The guy who claim that climate change is a communist conspiracy? :lol:

    Also, I've heard he really likes pens...
     
  6. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^^
    That was really low.

    Václav Klaus isn't perfect, neither as politican or human. But he's at least honest and a freedom fighter for his country, not a traitor or corrupt sell out who lick the boots for the hotshots in charge of the EU.
     
  7. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    This right-wing EUDSSR talk is right as it addresses the democracy deficit (Habermas "postdemocratic executive federalism" is still the best description of how EU governance basically works) and wrong as it implies that there is something leftish about the EU.
    If its institutions are biased in anyway than it is in the (neo)liberal direction. Examples are most obviously the way the sovereign debt crisis is handled and before that the European attempts to enforce competition (in general a good idea) even in labour markets (not so good, national labour market regulations are squeezed in the name of competition).
     
  8. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    You are right. He licks the boots of Putin instead.

    I'll take Bruxelles, thank you. I prefer waffles over AK47.
     
  9. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    I still think the EU needs reforming.

    1.>Net recipents of the EU budget should have no say in when it comes to increase/decrease in the EU budget, of course they are going to vote for more money. They are of course able to have a say in how that money is spend.

    2.>The CAP and CFP still need some more reform.

    Given time I could list more things that need reforming, but at the end of the day I suspect little will really change. As each member state tends to look after it's own best interest rather than the EU as a whole.
     
  10. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    This is not how e.g. the US works. North Dakota might get more federal money than New York but this doesn't imply that Dakotian representatives in (federal) Congress are forbidden from voting on the issues which impact their state (which are numerous).
    And this is not how any other national government relates to its states or how any state government relates to is municipalities.

    Nobody minds economic differences inside a nation so why, implicitly assuming that fiscal cooperation increases as the the long-run goal is a United States of Europe, should it be different for Europe? I don't care less about a Briton than a Bavarian.
     
  11. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    They are differences between the USA and the EU. Unlike the USA the EU doesn't have the same shared history that the USA does.

    And no one is saying that a Brit, a German etc.. should be less cared about than one another. I suspect that most EU citizens don't have a problem with each other.
     
  12. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Or the device's abilities might be limited to the two items that Picard mentioned. The small device wasn't "omni-capable," it couldn't for example make ceramics or metal items.

    There would the power requirements, and the shows technical advisers (non-canon) said that materials have to be fed into the replicator to get things out.

    How many billions of other units would there be on Earth?

    Problem there is, Quark was able to sell his wreaked shuttle here. So there is a financial system of some kind present.

    And if replicator are the reason there is no requirement for money (as some have suggested), why would Quark's shuttle have any value in it's damaged condition?

    Okay, then what about Aliens working on Earth?

    So, only Ben Sisko needed transporter credits.

    Okay.

    Merchant capitalism dates back to the ninth century in the Arab world. Market economies (on Earth) have been around for thousands of years.

    :)
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2013
  13. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    During the sovereign debt crises a lot of nationalist and racist crap came up the toilet. Here in Germany the mainstream opinion, is that Southern European countries faces problems because they are lazy people.
    Long way towards a United Europe and later, to get back on topic, a United Earth.


    No. Markets have always existed but modern free market economies have only existed for about 200 years. There was no significant GDP growth before the Industrial Revolution which, besides increasing technological progress (at least temporarily, there are economists who think that technological progress may slow down in the future) also came went hand in hand with the abolishment of competition-reducing institutions like gilds.

    Institutions matter, free markets with a decent amount of competition do not arise naturally. Otherwise we wouldn't have been as poor as we were during the majority of human history and the capitalist wonder of steady real per capita GDP growth of about 1-2% per year would have occurred much earlier.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2013
  14. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    ^Oh I'm fully aware that some in Germany had the opinion that some people in the Southern parts of the EU where lazy. It came up when I visited family in Germany earlier in the year.

    But as you say a long way to go to get to a United Europe, never mind a United Earth.
     
  15. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actual yes.

    Which is what I said.

    Which has what to do with what I said?

    Merchant capitalism is over eleven centuries old, coined money to be used in commerce is twenty-five centuries old.

    The shekel, as a standardized unit of weight to be used in trade, commerce and wages, is about fifty centuries old.

    :)
     
  16. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    We don't know to whom the wrecked shuttle was sold, though. It was sold on Earth, but not necessarily to a human. The Ferengi embassy, perhaps? Maybe the Bolians?


    I'm just pointing out that you're doing what I did - assumed the existence of a larger system based on one mention of one item by one person. I assumed Starfleet Academy issued transporter credits to the cadets, to limit and regulate their movements. You assumed transporter credits exist as part of a market system of some kind. Either could be "right" (as much as anything can be "right" in a fictional universe), but it's possible both are wrong, too.

    Any kind of function can be drawn through one data point. In that sense, one data point is useless, since it constrains nothing.
     
  17. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Another cheap shot.

    And a lie.

    What's so good about the European Union that you have to come up with cheap shots, exaggerations and lies against those who question it?

    Can you name any decent European Union politician?
     
  18. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A lie and a cheap shot? Sounds status quo for any political conversation. ;)
     
  19. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    If I were you, I wouldn't scold people for "exaggerations and lies" after:

    I also liked how you defended the policies of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, a right-wing populist who amended the (already self-tailored) Hungarian constitution to increase his own power, curb civil rights, limit the independence of the judiciary, and allow prosecution of political dissidents and religious minorities.

    If he, Vladimir Putin and Vaclav Klaus are your paragons of "political decency", then I am afraid I can't offer any European politician who can compare with those titans of democracy.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2013
  20. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's sometimes surprising just how much of the Star Trek universe does come from "one data point."

    :)