U.S. air show cancels plans to reenact atomic bombing of Japan

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by brian577, Apr 20, 2013.

  1. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored BRexiting the Briefing Room Moderator

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    Regardless of where one stands on the debate over the necessity of the use of the atomic bombs on Japan, it's never something that should be celebrated. Those were dark days, and to revel in it or use it to make some hateful and ignorant diatribe (see bigdaddy's post below) is distasteful in the extreme, even if you fully agreed with their use or just thought they were a necessary evil.

    It's not just because it was the atomic bomb, either. I would say the same of anyone commemorating the firebombings of Dresden or Tokyo as well. Though strangely, at least in the case of Dresden, people seem to get that doing that would be wrong even more so than they do with celebrating the atomic bombings. I guess people excuse it to themselves where it comes to Japan because of the vengeance factor over Pearl Harbor and the war and also the fact that, as mentioned, Japan has whitewashed a lot of their uglier actions before and during the war, whereas Germany made great strides in owning up to what they did and growing as a country in the aftermath of WWII. But Japan's choice of how to remember their actions in WWII is no excuse for us to celebrate a horrific act and weapon ourselves, which is in itself sort of whitewashing things.

    You can commemorate the aircraft and celebrate or memorialize the air crews of WWII just fine without doing the same for the bombings themselves. I'm hoping that whomever arranged for this display was simply attempting to do the former and neglected to see how the latter would come off, rather than actively trying to celebrate it. My great uncle was killed in the bombing campaign over Germany and my grandpa was a paratrooper training for the invasion of Japan when the bombs were dropped (and went there subsequently), so it's hardly as if I don't understand having mixed feelings about the subject.

    Do me a favor. I know it goes against the rapid fire ignorant and offensive comment making persona you've built up for yourself around here, but perhaps in the future you should take a moment and contemplate just what it is that you're saying before hitting the submit button. Try being thoughtful and reasonable for a little while, see how it fits.

    Until then...

    [​IMG]
     
  2. StarMan

    StarMan Vice Admiral Admiral

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    edit: ^Well said.

    Ditto. :lol:

    Millions of lives were saved, yes. But you can't tar every citizen with the crimes committed by the military and conclude they "deserved" it or were pure evil; it's a poor representation of reality. War is a horrendous undertaking and many die on both sides that don't deserve it.
     
  3. ThunderAeroI

    ThunderAeroI Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah I did. I jumped the gun after I read US air show canc...

    then I didn't read anymore of it. My fault.

    To the topic at hand, I'm surprised it was even planned at all.
     
  4. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    On a serious note, the Japanese still revere some we think of as war criminals and do not understand western attitudes to Japans past.

    This doesn't, of course, make Japanese youth evil, but it does make them horribly ignorant.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21226068
     
  5. B.J.

    B.J. Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    On a related note, what do people think of seeing the bombing of Pearl Harbor being recreated at various air shows? I've seen this particular display at least twice, and personally (being in the aerospace industry and an aircraft nut), I just loved seeing the old warbirds flying around, both American and Japanese.

    There's two things I can think of that would make this an acceptable display in most people's eyes versus the Hiroshima bombing: conventional vs nuclear bombs, and military vs civilian targets. Other opinions?
     
  6. jmc247

    jmc247 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    While the Japanese Army in WW2 was more brutal then Western non-political Armies as they really didn't have Western norms and values about warfare using terms like evil to describe an entire population is decidedly unhelpful.

    Concepts that an entire population is evil is a thing of ugly wartime propaganda and its best left there.

    [​IMG]

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    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2013
  7. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored BRexiting the Briefing Room Moderator

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    ^ Your point is correct and well intentioned, but it could have been made just as effectively without posting the actual racist propaganda or at least posting it as a link or behind spoiler code. We shouldn't whitewash our history by any means, but I'm not sure the TrekBBS where people often post from work and school is the appropriate venue to post it openly. I put it in spoiler code just in case.

    Also, there's the difference between being the inflictor and the inflictee. I don't see anything wrong if a country wants to commemorate a morally dubious attack where they were the victims (like us and Pearl Harbor), but it takes on a more distasteful atmosphere if you're celebrating something where you were the ones behind the morally questionable attack, like with us dropping the atomic bombs. Even if you feel their use was justified under the circumstances, it shouldn't be celebrated.

    Japan celebrating the attack on Pearl Harbor as a great victory would upset many people as well. However, if both sides memorialized it as a somber event without celebration, there shouldn't be a problem. And indeed, that's how it was treated by Americans and the many Japanese tourists when I visited Hawaii. I'm not sure how it's treated in Japan, though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2013
  8. Dimesdan

    Dimesdan Living the Irish dream. Admiral

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    I trust you would feel the same when it comes to commemorating in a negative and celebratory manner the long running Blitz on London and the destruction of other British cities including Coventry.
     
  9. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored BRexiting the Briefing Room Moderator

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    Absolutely not. Due to my longstanding grudge against the British for the Revolution and the burning of Washington in the War of 1812 (despite most of my family not even living in America yet), I would recommend that people go out and dance a jig to celebrate the Blitz and Coventry, because it makes total sense that I would suddenly take the complete opposite position toward our chief friend and ally despite everything else I've said in the thread. :rolleyes:

    Any other stupid questions?
     
  10. Dimesdan

    Dimesdan Living the Irish dream. Admiral

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    I knew you wouldn't just say yes, it's not in your nature to only use one word when you think several dozen will do nicely and to top it off, use a petty passive aggressive smiley.

    For the record, it was a question, a simple one and yes, maybe a bit of a misguided one, but one I felt like asking as that little bit I quoted, kinda irked me, and by the way I asked the question, I assumed you may have seen that, but I guess not.
     
  11. Count Zero

    Count Zero Says who? Moderator

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    What did irk you about it? It was pretty obvious that Locutus named well-known conventional bombings of cities of US enemies at the time as examples. If you want a comprehensive list of cities bombed in WWII we'd be here a while.
     
  12. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored BRexiting the Briefing Room Moderator

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    Of course, because there's nothing passive aggressive about asking if I think the Blitz or the destruction of Coventry should be celebrated, when absolutely nothing I've said would imply that. It's actually the complete opposite of the point I was making, so why you even thought the question was necessary is baffling to me.

    It's not a simple question. It's a very insulting question, actually, and one which ignores everything I've said.

    Why on Earth would saying that we shouldn't celebrate the bombings of Dresden or Tokyo "irk" you? It's not even a criticism of British and American strategy in the air war, it's just saying we shouldn't celebrate such horrific bombings and should treat them as the somber events that cost tens of thousands of lives that they were. Why would that bother you?

    I didn't list bombings against British targets because I was making a point about how WE shouldn't celebrate OUR horrific attacks on others, even though they were the enemy and the aggressors in the war. I wasn't even including the British as the hypothetical celebrants, even though they also participated in bombing Dresden. I was talking about American actions.
     
  13. jmc247

    jmc247 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That was actually what I thought would be safe for work WW2 era Allied propaganda... my mistake. I didn't post what I thought was the unsafe for work... that being Allied propaganda posters that depict the Japanese as subhuman animals out to violate American women or even worse.

    Lets just say its easy to forget how in major wars there is often a tendency to dehumanize the enemy and none of the major powers in World War 2 didn't do that to various degrees. Its what leads to some of the worst atrocities of warfare, because once not just the enemy, but their civilian population is thought of as less then human then mass murdering civilians mentally has a tendency to become much more acceptable in the human mind.
     
  14. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored BRexiting the Briefing Room Moderator

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    ^ No worries. Yeah, it was pretty low key as far as propaganda goes. I was just trying to play it safe for the people at work.
     
  15. Dimesdan

    Dimesdan Living the Irish dream. Admiral

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    I'm sorry if you found my very simple question as insulting, I just skimmed what you said. It was meant as a simple question, just because you jump at anything and over think most things doesn't mean it wasn't.

    Remember that the tells, body language and some such that occurs when people talk in real life is no where near possible on a message board, all we're seeing is text.

    Oh and Count Zero, I'm not totally sure, it just irked me, but yes, we could be here a long time if we were to discuss the destruction by both sides across Europe.
     
  16. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored BRexiting the Briefing Room Moderator

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    More passive-aggressiveness. If you're going to apologize, apologize. If you're going to insult, insult. Don't do some dishonest half-assed hybrid of both and try to pass yourself off as an innocent just caught up in a misunderstanding of your own creation.

    If it's such a simple question and reaction on your part, why can't you even describe what motivated it?

    Here, let me take a stab at it. You're so incredibly defensive about anything that involves Britain that you leap to its defense without cause or rational thought, even when no one is criticizing it.

    You did it a few months ago in the forum that shall not be named when the bank HSBC and its money laundering for terrorists and drug cartels was being discussed. No one was blaming Britain for it in any way, but you chose to get all huffy on Albion's behalf and lash out at Americans criticizing the bank by asking another "simple" unprovocative question (literally, you used those words to defend it) about the Americans who donated money to terrorists like the IRA, which presumes that the people criticizing the bank would hypocritically approve of that.

    Now you're irrationally upset by me saying that we shouldn't celebrate terrible events like the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo even if you think their use was justified by established precedent and the morality of the day. At no time was I critical of Britain or even talking about Britain despite their involvement in the Dresden bombing. I was talking about the actions of the US and saying we shouldn't spike the football and do an endzone dance (it's an American football thing) even though we "won," because the win came at such a high, terrible cost in lives. It was a dark day, and should be memorialized as such and treated with respect, just as the bombing of Coventry and the Blitz should, which should have been perfectly obvious from context to anyone not going off half-cocked and taking offense for no reason.

    You're absolutely right. Your dishonest attempt at playing the victim would be even more transparent in real life, and my body language in the form of a hand signal expressing my contempt for it would be much less TL;DR, because I know that's a big concern of yours.

    Now, since I don't expect you to admit you were wrong based on years of seeing you snipe at people for absolutely no reason and then saying "Who, me?" when called on it, I'll let you get in the last word so you don't have to keep straining yourself by reading long posts.
     
  17. Dimesdan

    Dimesdan Living the Irish dream. Admiral

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    Well that was enlightening and you've got me banged to rights, everything you said is correct, I mean sure, you're the all telling, all knowing Locutus of Bored.

    Actually, no you don't, but will you change your mind if I repeat myself, nope, probably not.

    In all seriousness I will say these things though:

    1) Given the way the Great Britain has acted, how the British Empire acted when Britannia ruled the waves, I am no where near proud of my Country, I may come to it's defense sometimes, but that doesn't mean I am proud to be English/British/whatever!

    2) If I have come across originally as passive aggressive, I appologise, that really wasn't my intent, the TL;DR comment, I'll hold my hands up and say, yes, that was a fair cop as that was the intent.

    3) As for what irked me, something I thought I read here, but actually didn't, but in the aforefentioned place that shale not be discussed, I put two and two together, made 42 and made a tit of myself it would seem here.

    So yes, regardless of what you may or may not think, I can admit being wrong and yes, this was an epic mistake of my own creation and I think I should (belatedly) take some of my own medicine when it comes to how one reads stuff on message boards.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2013
  18. ConRefit79

    ConRefit79 Captain Captain

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    I would not say they were pure evil, but there was a mind set that death was better than the dishonor of surrender. I've been to Saipan and seen where the Japanese civilians threw themselves, men, women and children, off a cliff. They did this rather than allowing themselves to be captured by US forces. I've read and heard how fierce the battles to take Okinawa were. So I believe invading the mainland would have cost more lives than the Atomic bombings.

    I do think it is necessary to remind people so we don't repeat the mistakes of the past(appeasement). Perhaps this airshow can pass on some history to younger people who otherwise may not care listen. Some truths are ugly and insensitive. But the Japanese started the war with us. And they need to remember that fact. So we should not hide it to spare their feelings.
     
  19. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    truth isn't ugly. but being needlessly provocative is.

    this airshow reenactment would have been. of course the japanese politicians that visit that shrine are. they should stop. you shouldn't start.