Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by ElimGarak, May 29, 2012.
I was just wondering, since you were using the words genes and destiny in one sentence.
I think people who would let billions die when it could be stopped with relatively little effort are seriously fucked in the head.
Don't confuse me for one of those. I'm an agnostic, a profound skeptic, and unwavering believer in human rights.
Being an "unwavering believer in human rights" may very well be the reason why some people would choose not to help these people.
People who have the same moral values can make different choices based on these values.
So what's your stand on an asteroid? What if an alien race passing by spotted one on a collision course with Earth that we were unaware of? Would you want them to nudge it a few degrees so it goes sailing by or would you want them to say "fuck it", it's not worth the effort and allow it to hit us straight on?
Human rights and humanitarianism are for humans, not for Valakans or Menk.
Interspecies ethics aren't the same as intraspecies ethics. People who do not understand the 101s of the Prime Directive might wanna start to actually think about the issue.
So if you offer assistance to someone that asks, that's playing God?
If you believe in God, since many are throwing that term around here, then you could operate under the belief that you were meant to help. Since the odds of the Valakians finding anyone floating around in the void at sublight speeds are astronomically not in their favor.
Which part of "if you cure the genetic disease the Menk might not become the dominant species of the planet" did you not understand?
So basically, you're saying that, because the Valakians violate the rights of the Menk, the rights of the Valakians should be... Suspended?
Aren't "human" rights are supposed to be universal? Aren't all entitled to them, even the oppressors?
My Grandmother used to say of the priests and nuns; at the boarding school she was forced to attend 2000 miles away from her home, and who whipped her with willow switches for speaking her native language, "Don't call them evil, they thought they were saving me from Hell."
Left her with a lot scars and a devout Catholic.
What part of "you're still playing God" do you not understand? You're making the decision based on how you think things will play out.
Wake up tomorrow with two out of every three humans dead. What do you think the implications would be? Let's up the ante. What happens if you wake up tomorrow and every pilot, engineer, doctor, nurse, nuclear technician and every other skilled position on the planet were dead? Dead festering in the cities and disease running rampant.
You also seem to ignore a piece of the puzzle: the Menk were still evolving, regardless of the Valakian presence. So that's just a bullshit point inserted to try and make the audience not hate Phlox. The poor Menk can't grow because of those mean, mean Valakians.
It always troubles me how gullible Trek fans are, we're suppose to be smart.
Much with the hyperbole? We're giving them a cure for a disease that will kill billions of men, women and children.
Holy fucking cow, Anakin Skywalker really was right!
Who is the one that thinks they're saving the Valakians from Hell?
Since I don't believe in Hell, that's a non-starter. I believe in saving people who ask for assistance or who may not be aware of an imminent threat to their existence, if it's feasible.
Yes, of course, Mach5 yours has always been the superior intellect.
I'm not saying such thing.
Just to be clear, I would have chosen to give the medicine to the Valakians. Although I sympathize with the non-interference principle, I do not think it applies to this particular dilemma. Firstly, the crew was asked for help. Secondly, the crew had already agreed to help and had even developed a cure. Since the Valakians were dying and helping the Valakians wouldn't compromise the health of the Menk, I'd say a doctor would be obliged to help them according to the Hippocratic Oath.
I was trying to point out that people who have an other opinion in this case are not necessarily "fucked in the head" and can easily be guided by the same basic moral principles, such as "treat your neighbour as yourself". They may interpret the context differently or take factors into account that you hadn't considered yet or the other way around.
Having moral principles is no safeguard against making stupid decisions, especially when people get so emotional that they don't even want to listen to people with a different view.
And that's exactly why this is such a great episode.
BillJ, you are vastly over-simplifying the issue and declaring a simplistic solution to the problem. You have decided that which makes you feel better about yourself is the solution that must be implemented.
Then explain why the Valakians should be left to die? I've already debunked Phlox's opinion that the Valakians were somehow holding back Menk development, since they were already developing enough for Phlox to make the determination that they were evolving. Hell, you could make the argument that the presence of the Valakians was accelerating the development of the Menk. Like when a younger sibling sometimes develops more quickly than an older sibling did. You're the one that seems to be advocating the simplest solution of all, flying away and saying screw it without truly evaluating the situation.
That you have to stay around and make the cure is also bunk, since the Valakians seem to have a solid medical infrastructure already in place.
Is it playing God when a doctor gives a cancer treatment to a patient? Am I playing God when I give a homeless person money or buy them a cup of coffee or buy them a meal?
Our choices have us playing God every day... especially if you have children.
Which part of the word "might" do you not understand?
You are the one who lacks humility and talks about certainties, Archer made his decision based precisely on not knowing how things will play out.
If you wanna simplify the issue and not think about the unanticipated consequences of your actions that is of course your prerogative. I rather face the pure horror of not being able to do what every fiber in your body tells you to be right because your brain realizes that you are not allowed to play God and help one species because it could damage another.
It is no coincidence that the anti-PD faction uses the word human so much. Yet the implications of intra- = interspecies ethics are total war. You'd be ethically obliged (ethics never are a matter of choice) to free every species subjugated by the Klingons or Romulans. Intellectual laziness can have nasty consequences.
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