True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Discussion in 'Enterprise' started by ElimGarak, May 29, 2012.

  1. Ian Keldon

    Ian Keldon Fleet Captain

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    If their beliefs mesh with what is right, we will have already adopted them ourselves, and imposition would be unnecessary.

    The idea that one does not have the right to take the life of an innocent person is a universal "good", for example.
     
  2. Ian Keldon

    Ian Keldon Fleet Captain

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    Quit doding the question. Humans have had cultures that practiced human sacrifice for millenia...was that right? Should it be permitted to be revived today because it was "thousands of years in development"?

    Right and wrong are universal constants..
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    I'm pretty sure that if you dig deep enough there are still cultures practicing human sacrifice and cannibalism. Are you saying we should send in armies to stop every action that a culture takes that disagrees with your view of right and wrong? We can't decide among ourselves what constitutes right and wrong from country to country and even person to person, it is far from a universal concept.

    The Vulcans turn their children loose in a desert in a test of maturity and betroth children (which happens here on Earth as well) when they're very young? Should Starfleet and Child Services invade and occupy Vulcan until they come around to our enlightened way of thinking?
     
  4. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    Indeed. While I view the postmodern denial of universal human concepts as disgusting it would be extremely arrogant if humankind thought that it knew what is best for aliens. To quote Archer from Cogenitor: You thought you were doing the right thing. I might agree if this was Florida, or Singapore, but it's not, is it. We're in deep space and a person is dead.

    As you pointed out arranged marriage might be forbidden on United Earth but it can hardly be forbidden in the Federation. It might be a stupid artifact from the past and not serve any direct purpose but Vulcan society is so orthodox and rigid for a good reason. Not our job to tell them to change their ways.
    Furthermore humans are not even aware of all the various lifeforms that exist. They initially deny Horta, Data or holograms basic rights so how they be the judge of what is right and wrong for them.
     
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Its not disgusting. It is a product of people being brought up with differing values and differing experiences shaping an individuals worldview.

    Universal human concepts attempts to homogenize our worldview in a way that simply isn't possible.
     
  6. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    While I am for relativism in the case of dealing aliens I am the very opposite in the case of us. Human rights are universal. When somebody tries to rationalize monarchy or genital mutilation with tradition he is simply wrong.
    Of course the problem of such a stance is that it is on a fundamental level totalitarian. But you need this zero-level of dogmatism, you can e.g. not say that democracy is contingent and we can vote on whether we want it or not. In Germany this was possible eighty years ago and it led to fascism.
     
  7. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You're avoiding the context. I was responding to the position that the Moral Dilemma is false, because it is being presented with Junk Psuedoscience. Warp Drive is every bit junk Psuedoscience, so, since they arrive at the moral dilemmas every week via Junk Psuedoscience Warp Drive, all moral dilemmas in all of Trek can be just as easily dismissed as being false dilemmas. You can't accept the results of one bit of Junk Psuedoscience as legitimate, while saying the effects of another are false.

    I agree it was wrong for the writers to propagate/condone the idea as legitimate science, but, that was the science they chose to present in the story, so, in that universe, in that episode, it is legitimate science, just as much as Warp Drive is, since they couldn't arrive at the Moral dilemma without the Junk Psuedoscience of Warp Drive
     
  8. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    Because he is working on a Star Fleet ship and thus is subject to Star Fleet rules and regulations. If someone is visiting another country and they break the laws of that country, trying to argue that the illegal act in question is okay in their culture would not save them from legal punishment.
     
  9. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    First, Phlox did not break any rule. He considered insubordination but didn't do it.
    Second, The Breach reveals that your notion of Phlox being subject to human medical ethics is wrong.
    Third, Archer could have chosen a human doctor but he chose an alien doctor for a good reason.
    The emerging Federation is not a "homo sapiens only club". What we see in ENT is the slow coming together of species that differ and often cannot stand each other.
     
  10. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    How can he be working on a Starfleet ship, when there is no such thing as starfleet?
     
  11. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    It really does sound great but in practice it will never carry very far due to the radical differences in life experience and radical differences in what is needed for survival.
     
  12. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    It is not the UFP Starfleet but Earth Starfleet. Not really much of a fleet yet though. :lol:
     
  13. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    So are we to assume that Archer's ship there are no rules and regulations and anyone can do what they feel like?
     
  14. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    so you're saying you're a blatant speciesist? Ethics and rights apply to Humans, but not to sentient, self-aware aliens with their own societies?:confused:


    What would be the distinction other than place of origin? If there were an undiscovered tribe living somewhere on Earth, would you contend that ethics don't apply to them?
     
  15. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    Which part of universal human rights did you not understand, Mr. Strawman?
     
  16. TiberiusMaximus

    TiberiusMaximus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    What the frell does that have to do with my comment? I said:

    So, basically, I said sometimes the Feds would be morally and ethically obligated to say no to a request for help. Other times they wouldn't. Your "reply" makes no sense at all. You seem to think I'm equating "cries for help" with extinction-level events. I was referring to two different kinds of scenarios: actual requests for help that do not involve extinction-level events OR extinction-level events with or without requests for help.

    I think I'm done with this thread. I'm exhausted of going in circles. To sum up: The PD is a good idea but isn't always right, and a lot of Trek fans fail to properly understand just why it's a good idea. Letting billions of people die is never a good thing. Saving someone once doesn't render you responsible for their eternal well-being. Hmm...that seems to cover it.

    So long, everyone. Have fun.
     
  17. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    It has everything to do with what you wrote as you claimed that the Feds should prevent extinction and not interfere into wars. I just asked a natural question, what if they overlap, what if a war could lead to self-annihilation.
    Bill has provided a clear answer to this question. He distinguishes between natural and cultural catastrophes and advocates interferences in the former and non-interference in the latter case. You on the other hand refuse to think about the issue. So much about not making sense.
     
  18. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    so it is indeed a location thing for you? There's something special about originating on the third planet in the Solar system as opposed to being a sentient, self-aware species in some other system somewhere when it comes to ethics?

    Now look at that concept objectively, and try to construct a logical basis for it to make sense.
     
  19. TiberiusMaximus

    TiberiusMaximus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Stop being passive-aggressive and snide.

    One more thing before I actually stop replying in this thread. I am NOT refusing to think about the issue. I'm advocating a more case-by-case approach to deciding who does and doesn't get help. Drawing arbitrary lines in the sand doesn't really help anyone. That's not the same as refusing to think about the issue.

    Horatio, people might take you more seriously if you could write at least one post without being so smug and condescending.
     
  20. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    A bunch of stupid primates who were about to kill a silicon-based lifeform, to enslave an android and to deny hologram their basic rights can hardly know the holy grail of universal ethics that applies to all lifeforms. Starfleet officers are humble folks and not megalomaniacs that wage war against death-loving aristocrats like the Klingons in order to put them into reeducation camps afterwards.

    If every species thinks it knows what it best for ALL other species the consequence is total war.


    I responded to your "you do not make sense" in kind and now the pot calls the kettle back.
     

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