TP: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Sho, Jun 17, 2012.

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Rate Raise the Dawn.

  1. Outstanding

    83 vote(s)
    70.3%
  2. Above Average

    25 vote(s)
    21.2%
  3. Average

    3 vote(s)
    2.5%
  4. Below Average

    3 vote(s)
    2.5%
  5. Poor

    4 vote(s)
    3.4%
  1. Sjaddix

    Sjaddix Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    Hmm, been a while since I looked at a quality star map so I am not really sure where the Khitomer Allies are located relative to the Typhon Pact Members.
     
  2. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    I haven't read the books, so I don't know if this is addressed, but wouldn't Slipstream make the wormhole unnecessary for travel? I could still see DS9 being important as a last stop in Federation space though.
     
  3. shanejayell

    shanejayell Captain Captain

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    So far slipstream has been pretty limited in that it either requires a custom built ship or extensive modifications to work. And there are ship types where the Federation can't get it to work in at all, I think.
     
  4. Sjaddix

    Sjaddix Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    Wormhole is pretty much instant and allows you to move a whole fleet so nah still pretty darn useful
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    Also it relies on a rare crystalline substance called benamite. There isn't enough available to equip the entire fleet.
     
  6. Hotshot2000

    Hotshot2000 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    De-lurking for the moment to register an alternate reaction to the book. While any and perhaps all of the changes to the DS9 characters and universe have good potential, I found the scope of the "crisis" which triggered those changes underwhelming. The book itself acknowledges that once the fleet is rebuilt in a few years, it won't matter that the Typhon Pact has slipstream.* So making that the catalyst for dramatic changes felt to me bland -- this is what Kira's life is ending/being transformed over? This is what the wormhole is closing over? This is what Odo is racing against time and being stranded for? In addition, the big standoff in the wormhole didn't make sense. It's not like immediately upon arrival with the Dominion technology the TP could have started churning out slipstream ships. Why not cloak the Defiant, let the Romulans go through, follow them through the TP wormhole to the Tzenkethi station, then call in reinforcements and capture or destroy the station? (It was also exhausting for me to read a _third_ book where the TP acquiring slipstream is the focus of the action. It makes in-universe sense that they would keep trying, but as a plot device felt repetitive.)

    Also, the missing five years were keenly felt. Wouldn't it have been great to see the Eav'oq or the Even Odds or Taranatar come to Odo's ship's rescue? What was Raiq and Kira's relationship, and what will happen to Raiq in Kira's absence? What was Sisko's last contact with the Prophets, and why didn't they tell him that he had completed his tasks, or why didn't he sense it?

    Also, how can Sisko so easily leave Bajor? Just because he is disconnected from the Prophets and the wormhole should not eradicate the emotional and social ties he spent more than a decade building up. And as many have already noted, it doesn't make in-universe sense for Starfleet not to use slipstream to continue exploring the non-Dominion parts of the Gamma Quadrant (they sent a whole fleet to the Delta quadrant after all, where there was no official Federation contact, as opposed to many civilizations in the GQ where the Federation had officially opened relations). Whether Odo wants to return or not is a question worth exploring, but it is highly unlikely that he is "stranded" in the AQ.

    In short, although the book was richly written, and the non-DS9 elements were by-and-large excellent, I couldn't help but feel that the series and characters were dragged along for a ride that they (or I) hadn't been properly prepared to take.

    * I can't find the reference right now to check whether this statement was made even after it was known that the TP would have been able to equip all of their ships with the technology as opposed to the Federation's more limited deployment of slipstream. But (a) if the Typhon Pact can figure it out using Dominion technology, then certainly the Federation can do so, and there are all sorts of reasons in Odo/the Dominion's self-interest to give the necessary technology to the Federation and (b) where is the TP going to get all the benamite to power slipstream on all of their ships?
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    Remember what Kira said to Sisko in the vision. You can't step into the same river twice. If Sisko had spent his life with Kasidy starting back then, during the Dominion War, he would've known only sorrow; but if he spends his life with her starting now, the circumstances are different so the outcome won't be the same.

    By analogy, the danger isn't the Pact getting slipstream ever; the danger is the Pact getting slipstream now. If they got it now, while the Federation and its allies were still below full strength and while the warmongering faction within the Pact was still potent enough to run rings around the moderates like Kamemor, then the consequence would've been a war that tore the quadrant apart and caused serious long-term harm to both alliances. But if they get it later, when the Khitomer Allies are stronger and the moderates within the Pact are in a better position to hold the surviving militants in check, then the long-term consequences will be nowhere near as dire.

    So yes, it was important to the long-term future to stop them from getting slipstream now (meaning 2383), even knowing that they will have it eventually. Context is important.



    Well, for one thing, they had no idea what would actually be there at the other end of the new wormhole. There could've been a whole fleet with a tachyon detection grid of its own, or they could've had subspace jamming in effect as they did in the Gamma Quadrant. And there's no guarantee those reinforcements could've come soon enough to prevent the Romulan ship from spiriting the Dominion components away into deep Pact territory.


    Well, technically it's only the second story about that, and it ties in the events of Zero Sum Game so closely that it's essentially a single story arc.


    He has his responsibilities to Starfleet and the Robinson. Officers in Starfleet can't just pack up and go wherever they feel like; they go where they're ordered to go, where their duty takes them.


    Sure, in theory. But as stated above, there's only a finite number of slipstream ships and they have to use the drive sparingly due to the limited amount of benamite that exists. (Which is part of the reason the Pact's fear of the technology as a game-changer was exaggerated.) So I'd assume it's more a question of availability than one of will. Although I agree it would make sense to allocate a slipstream ship to take Odo back to the Dominion as soon as one became available.


    I don't think it was ever the plan to put slipstream on all their ships. The idea was that the ability to retrofit existing ships would let them create a slipstream fleet faster than they could if they had to design and build whole new ships from scratch. So they could catch up with the UFP faster and gain an edge on it in future slipstream vessel construction.
     
  8. MatthiasRussell

    MatthiasRussell Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    I'm one of those who thought war was inevitable. It looked like it was from within the fictional universe. The only thing that prevented war was Kamemor coming to Earth. If she were not such a skilled diplomat and taken that risk, I don't think Bacco could have held back war sentiment or even wanted to especially after the Romulans, Tzenkethi, and True Way returned with Dominion tech.

    Even with that being the case, I'm not sure realistically if the efforts of Kamemor and Bacco could have held back war sentiment since the Typhon Pact were responsible for "destroying" the wormhole. Nothing gets the war juices flowing like religious sentiment and I'm sure the Bajorans would like retribution against the parties involved in eliminating the gateway to the celestrial temple. Hopefully this religious ferver appears in upcoming novels.

    I would expect someone to attempt to assassinate Kamemor, especially among the Tzenkethi since she is upsetting the designs of very powerful individuals. However, I hope this doesn't happen because she is a very interesting Romulan and a major stablizing force for the quadrant.
     
  9. Ronald Held

    Ronald Held Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    This is question for writers and editors: can other class ships beside the vesta be fitted with slipstream drive without a major overhaul and structural changes?
     
  10. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    Found myself caught in the Surprise Storm of 2012 this weekend with no power, no Internet, and no cell phone reception -- and so plenty of time to finish this book!

    Loved it. Loved it, loved it, loved it. Others, especially Thrawn, have outlined in greater detail than I could hope to match what was so lovely about it. The scene where Kassidy tells Ben that she's come to understand and accept why he needs to be away from her was absolutely heartbreaking and wonderful. Loved the Kamemor/Bacco scenes. Loved the Sisko stuff, loved Kira's stuff, loved seeing Ro in charge. Loved it. I hope this is a great springboard for future DSN novels.
     
  11. Sjaddix

    Sjaddix Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    Yeah Bajoran Reaction should be interesting but they probably kiss and make up like that did with the Cardassians and get absolutely nothing again.

    Even if they fail to kill her. Romulus is about to get wiped off the board anyway which should change the game in a major way anyway.
     
  12. DEWLine

    DEWLine Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    My understanding was "yes", but not all of them and certainly not all at once. Availability of ships and yard time as well as benamite in play here, so multiple "bottlenecks".
     
  13. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    And I think this book did a good job of showing why that was a misconception: because there were so many people on both sides actively trying to prevent war. (Not to mention because this is fiction. Fiction is routinely about making the worst possible outcome seem inevitable and then having the heroes avert it against impossible odds. So just because war looks inevitable in a work of fiction, that doesn't mean it can be expected to happen. On the contrary, since fiction often relies on surprise and reversals, war is more likely to break out in a fictional universe when it's unexpected.)


    No -- rogue elements within the Typhon Pact were responsible. And the leader of the strongest nation within the Typhon Pact was instrumental in dismantling their efforts and bringing them to justice.


    Those parties have already been defeated or at least badly weakened, thanks to Praetor Kamemor. Any Bajorans who'd want to go to war against her now would have to be fanatical idiots, as great a threat to the peace as Sela and Tomalak.


    And that's exactly why the Tzenkethi might not attempt any such thing. As Rough Beasts of Empire made clear, the whole reason they maneuvered Kamemor into the praetorship in the first place was because they wanted a strong and stable Typhon Pact, not one weakened and damaged by factional strife. The efforts of Sela and her faction, as Kamemor pointed out, just made the Pact less safe and stable, so Kamemor's actions served the strength and safety of the Pact, which is what the Tzenkethi want. True, the Tzenkethi were part of Sela's scheme, but hopefully their leaders will recognize what a severe miscalculation that was and how badly it undermined the goals they were hoping to serve.


    Yes, if they're small and/or narrow enough. We know, of course, that Intrepid-class starships can use slipstream, since Voyager was able to do so. But something big and wide like a Galaxy or Akira, or a Luna, evidently, would be out of luck.
     
  14. Dimesdan

    Dimesdan Living the Irish dream. Admiral

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    Although being a work of fiction, that may be completely untrue or just change at some point. ;)
     
  15. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    ^As long as it's part of the same novel continuity overseen by the same people, it wouldn't "just change." If anything, the novel editors and authors seem to have gone out of their way to embrace the notion of the difficulty of retrofitting ships with slipstream drive. The idea that it required a specific hull configuration was just a handwave I came up with to explain why Titan didn't get slipstream, but later novels have really run with it and made it a major plot point. So any change to that status quo wouldn't just happen, but would need to be justified in-story, like the way the Pact scientists deduced that Dominion tech could let them achieve it.
     
  16. Stoek

    Stoek Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    And this kind of attempt to make tech feel like tech instead of "magic" is greatly appreciated by many Trek fans. Myself to be certain. It can mean the difference between looking at a fairly improbable piece of tech and going, "Well okay it at least makes some sense with what's gone before." or looking at such a thing and wanting to throw things at the screen. *cough*microtransporter*cough*
     
  17. Tirius

    Tirius Captain Captain

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    I just finished Dawn last weekend. Here's some random thoughts. I won't be able to cover everything (I mean, that would require more text than I can put in this message), but I selected a few topics I think are most worth discussing. (Do I need to warn for spoilers on page 11?)

    First, I must admit something. I was quite critical of Rough Beasts of Empire and where it took Sisko. After reading Night and Dawn though, I will happily eat those words. ;) In the end, I think all three books together make a fine trilogy as far as Sisko is concerned - they take him full circle in a way I hadn't expected but ultimately appreciated very much. We left Sisko as an "Emissary on hiatus" changing diapers at the end of the last Relaunch book, and I do think that his position needed to be addressed. If the Ascendant arc couldn't do that, then ultimately these three books did so quite nicely. The Prophets' warning was always hanging over his marriage like a sword of Damocles, which has now been dealt with. I much appreciate that it wasn't just a matter of Sisko finding his way back, but that Kasidy's own experiences in these books allowed her to meet him halfway as it were. She's always been depicted as being very uncomfortable with Sisko's role as Emissary, but her own experiences with the Prophets I think allowed her to develop a better understanding of what had motivated Ben. In the end, it felt not like Sisko coming back to Kasidy, both both of them moving towards eachother again. I very much appreciated that - as I've said before, hope for better times is one of the things Star Trek has always been about for me, and that was definately present here.

    Now, my favorite book by David George is most certainly Serpents Among the Ruins. I really like the way he writes the Romulans, and wow, that's what we got here. I'll start by saying I really enjoyed T'Jul. Both she and Kamemor were depicted as - and I'm struggling to find the right word here - honest Romulans. In that I'm saying that they're not written as adversaries to "our heroes". Even though T'Jul ultimately found herself first deceiving and later fighting Starfleet, she didn't do so because she hated the Federation, but just because she found herself on the wrong side of an escalating conflict. Likewise, I found Kamemor so likeable not because she was sympathetic to the Federation, but rather because she was motivated by her service to the Star Empire. She reminded me a lot of what I like in Nan Bacco - here we have a woman who's not affraid of having personal risks or making impopular decisions for the cause she believes in, consequences be damned. The final confrontation between the two of them was golden, I almost applauded! All in all, this is the way I way the Typhon Pact situation to be handeld: not with open war, but with an honest exploration of the new political status quo - between the various powers, but also within each of them. I mentioned in my review of RBoE that I'd like to see the UFP bury the hatchet with the Romulans, as I think it's past time where they learned to understand each other and move forward. We now seem to have a chance at that, and I'm very happy with it. So whoever gets to work the "Hobus incident" into our current storyline once we reach it - I hope they find a way to salvage what was started here.

    The second thing I want to mention is the loss of DS9. I've always liked its design, but that said - if the station had to go, then I think it went in the best way possible: serving the story. We've lost so many Enterprises over the years that ultimately, there would come a time for the station to go, and in the end - it's just a bit of metal that can and will be replaced. Likewise, I'm not that worried about the closing of the wormhole and Kira going with it. It's happened before (after "Tears of the Prophets"), and if Sisko can come back via Prophet-back-door, then so can Kira. We've got plenty of great characters left that will carry the story forward in the mean time (kudos for bringing back Nog and O'Brien!). One slight problem I did have, was how to marry the cover art to the description of the new DS9 given in the last chapter. I also have to try and find the description for the Tzenkethi ship again, because I had trouble picturing that too. Perhaps someone can enlighten me...?

    I'll close with a few notes on Prynn and Vaughn. I think we've likely seen the last of Vaughn now, and though I liked his character, I'm OK with his departure. The concept of ending the life of another in this manner, and the dilemma it put Prynn in, is a touchy subject that I applaud both writer and editor for covering, because it's one of those things that a lot of people see as controversial in our time. It was handled with great care and respect for the situation of the next-of-kin, which I appreciated a lot.

    So, concluding it all is another vote of "Outstanding" from me. I wasn't that thrilled with Destiny and some of the follow-up TP novels, but if this is the new direction we're going in for the DS9, all I can say is: when is the next one due? ;)

    P.S. For a book this good, I'll even type all of this twice. Take about bad timing for suddenly being logged out of the board...
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
  18. MatthiasRussell

    MatthiasRussell Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    Obviously the creative minds molding the Star Trek universe can move fictional events however they wish, though they typically try to do so in a logical progression and in such a way that causes us to examine events in our real world.

    It is because of real world events that I worry about the future of the fictional universe because with the Khitomer Accords and Typhon Pact we have a situation that resembles the early 1900s where all the major world powers are tied into some treaty obligation where due to one bad move, the entire quadrant falls into war. This situation hasn't existed in Star Trek before because it never had so many alliances between so many powerful nations, some of which are expansionist and militaristic.

    Pre 1914, no one expected the massive war that developed nor could they have predicted the scale on which that war was fought especially as a result of the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand.

    I know you, Christopher, don't want to see Star Trek to become an ongoing war story/BSG, but that doesn't mean other stakeholders in Star Trek might want to take advantage of the powder keg situation and cause Galactic War 1 to break out.
     
  19. Stoek

    Stoek Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    I should like to respectfully suggest that you may be a touch limited in the scope of your imagination. The parallels you draw are not inapt to be certain. But I think perhaps you underestimate the authors and their commitment (as demonstrated by the stories they tell) to keeping Trek, Trek. It seems to me that rather than telling a story about as you call it Galactic War One, they seem to be using events both contemporary and historical to inspire a narrative that offers a potential guide, or at the very least some food for thought about how things might be guided in a direction other than perpetual warfare.

    To me that is what Trek in all it's myriad guises and media has always done best. Not merely reflected back the times in which we live, but shown us the hope of a better path than the one we are on now.

    I personally have not been this enthralled with the stories in Trek-Lit in some time as I am with the Typhon Pact storyline/status quo/plot device. I believe the future of written stories is in very good hands indeed and I do not think it possible, let alone probable that we will suddenly find ourselves looking at Trek turned BSG.
     
  20. MatthiasRussell

    MatthiasRussell Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

    There is no need to insult me and my imagination which I assure you is extremely healthy and capable of understanding a wide range of theories and concepts.

    As I expressed, I understand that the authors I have had contact with have no desire to see Star Trek become a universe of continuous war stories but that doesn't mean editors and producers share that sentiment. Part of the theory behind the latest Trek films is Star Trek needs a little Star Wars. It is is easy to imagine Star Trek falling down the slope into warfare. It is easy to see how the foundation is laid for this to happen. I know the intention of creating the Typhon Pact by the authors who did so was not to create an adversary.

    Most alliances are formed to prevent war rather than create it. But when events happen to foment war, those same alliances become a means of maintaining and growing it.