TOS movie era Novels?

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by GalaxyClass1701, Apr 2, 2012.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I think it was just different editorial philosophies, and maybe a function of the different formats. Comics tell ongoing, often serialized stories moving forward in time, so once they started out their series by tying into the latest movie, they naturally continued forward from there. And when DC first got their license, it was between TWOK and TSFS, so that was where they started from, and as they moved forward they stayed current with the movies. Novels, on the other hand, tell more self-contained stories, and at the time there was little continuity among novels. So although Pocket started out in its first year or so doing mostly novels set after TMP, it wasn't long before they started jumping around and doing 5-year mission stories, and that turned out to be the timeframe that most authors preferred working in.

    And there definitely wasn't an attempt at a single continuity between Pocket and DC. There were some cases of cross-referencing, like Diane Duane using her novel characters in the comics she wrote, but there were other cases of direct contradiction; for instance, Pocket and DC did incompatible versions of both the start and the end of the 5-year mission.


    I still count most of the Howard Weinstein issues from Vol. 2 in my personal continuity along with several of the novels from that era. Some other stuff in Vol. 2 has some conflicts with canon, though; for instance, the Peter David issues portray a 23rd-century Klingon emperor (contradicting TNG's "Rightful Heir"), and the Debt of Honor graphic novel offers an explanation of ridged vs. smooth Klingons that contradicts later canon.

    Also, there might be an issue reconciling the PAD issues of Vol. 2, which begin shortly after TFF and continue serially for some time thereafter, with In the Name of Honor, which mostly takes place in the month after TFF. Although it might be possible to fudge the timing a bit.
     
  2. ATimson

    ATimson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Even the modern "intended to be consistent" lit-verse has some fudging with timing (most of S.C.E.). It'd be in good company. ;)
     
  3. Jsplinis

    Jsplinis Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Through the years, I have read all of the TOS comics printed since TVH came out. Of those, DC Comics volume 2 has always held a special place for me. It felt like a comic book equivalent of the TV series for the 3rd set of missions and seemed to cover all of the major developments that took place between TFF/TUC, such as Sulu getting his own command and Valeris coming on board. Also, my favorite character, Saavik, was brought on as a regular during these stories giving her a spot as the 10th main TOS character (12th if you count Arex and M'Ress. (I know she was in volume 1, but she felt more "official" in Volume 2 because volume 1 had such a large cast)

    Also back in those days I read a handful of the early novels. The ones that stuck with me were the ones that took place between TMP/ TWOK. They had a similar feel to DC Vol.2 in that they filled in for the 2nd 5YM and subsequent gap and also hit major moments like the origin of Saavik (Pandora Principle) and the end of the 2nd 5YM (Deep Domain). Other than these I also read Diane Duane's first 2 Rihannsu novels and Doctors Orders.

    So between the TV series depicting the 1st 5YM, the novels depicting the 2nd and the comics the 3rd it felt like a good set of adventures. Also it felt natural that each mission would have familiar faces (the big 7) but would also have differences (Duane's characters for the 2nd and DC's Saavik and Tooch for the 3rd). If the TOS had been brought back it would have probably had cast changes along the way.

    So after about 20 years away from the novels I thought it would probably be fun to do an TOS marathon. But before I start I wanted to have it figured out ahead of time.

    For the first 5YM I would include

    1. The TOS And TAS shows
    2. D.C. Fontana's Vulcan Glory and Enterprise Experiment (IDW).

    For the 2nd 5YM and Pre-TWOK Era I would use

    1. Ex Machina (which I haven't read but have heard is incredible) for the first adventure,
    2. Diane Duane's Novels
    3. A.C.Crispin's novels
    4. Howard Weinstein's Deep Domain for the final mission along with the Covenant of the Crown and the Better Man.
    5. Pandora's Principle as Saavik's origin and M.W.Bonanno's Unspoken Truth follow-up.

    For the 3rd set of missions I would use

    1. DC Comics Volume 2 and all of its associated annuals, specials, graphic novels and Modalla Imperative.

    Also I would use any other TOS stories written by major writers because they would probably not contradict their other works but add to them. These would include

    1. Howard Weinstein's Official Record
    2. Peter David's The Rift.
    3. A.C. Crispin's Sarek and its sequel Enter the Wolves (Wildstorm)
    4. Mere Anarchy (Weinstein and Bennett connected)
    5. Bennett's As Others See Us
    6. Bonanno's Dwellers in the Crucible, Strangers in the Sky and Music of the Spheres
    7. Stories by DC Comics Vol.2 that happen at other points of time.

    So what does everyone think, would this create any major continuity problems both internally and taken with the later shows ? (TNG, DS9, etc.) Does Saavik's story stay consistent. Would there be any other problems I'm not thinking of?

    Also, of the L.A.Graf novels in the 2nd 5YM I have only read Kobayashi Maru. Can this and the others be used without creating problems. How about Home is the Hunter and Enemy Unseen? Any other suggestions?

    So I look forward to your inputs and to reexploring TOS. With the TOS/TAS AND DC Vol.2 you get the feeling of a series for their respective set of missions. I would love to get that serial/ series feel for the 2nd 5YM through a careful collection of Novels to represent those stories and missions.

    Thanks again and have fun,
    Jsplinis
     
  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Actually DC's version of Sulu's first command has been contradicted by the much later novel Excelsior: Forged in Fire. As for the Valeris story, it doesn't quite mesh with TUC itself, since in the movie, Spock was Valeris's Academy sponsor and Kirk hadn't met her before, neither of which is true in the comic. Don't get me wrong, the comic is a very good story, but a couple of continuity errors slipped past the radar.


    Ah, yes, the origin of Saavik is another instance where Pocket and DC took incompatible approaches.


    So after about 20 years away from the novels I thought it would probably be fun to do an TOS marathon. But before I start I wanted to have it figured out ahead of time.

    For the first 5YM I would include

    1. The TOS And TAS shows
    2. D.C. Fontana's Vulcan Glory and Enterprise Experiment (IDW).

    For the 2nd 5YM and Pre-TWOK Era I would use

    1. Ex Machina (which I haven't read but have heard is incredible) for the first adventure,
    2. Diane Duane's Novels
    3. A.C.Crispin's novels
    4. Howard Weinstein's Deep Fomain for the final mission along with the Covenant of the Crown and the Better Man.
    5. Pandora's Principle as Saavik's origin and M.W.Bonanno's Unspoken Truth follow-up.

    For the 3rd set of missions I would use

    1. DC Comics Volume 2 and all of its associated annuals, specials, graphic novels and Modalla Imperative.

    Also I would use any other TOS stories written by major writers because they would probably not contradict their other works but add to them. These would include

    1. Howard Weinstein's Official Record
    2. Peter David's The Rift.
    3. A.C. Crispin's Sarek and its sequel Enter the Wolves (Wildstorm)
    4. Mere Anarchy (Weinstein and Bennett connected)
    5. Bennett's As Others See Us
    6. Bonanno's Dwellers in the Crucible, Strangers in the Sky and Music of the Spheres
    7. Stories by DC Comics Vol.2 that happen at other points of time.

    So what does everyone think, would this create any major continuity problems both internally and taken with the later shows ? (TNG, DS9, etc.) Does Saavik's story stay consistent. Would there be any other problems I'm not thinking of?[/quote]

    There are some differences of detail between The Pandora Principle and Unspoken Truth where Saavik's backstory is concerned, though they use the same broad strokes. Pretty much every prose/comics version of Saavik's past uses the basics of what Vonda McIntyre established in her TWOK novelization, but there are differences in the specifics. And there are a number of other cases where you'd run into continuity discrepancies in those books, particularly between books from the '80s and those from the '00s. But it's probably best just to read them and decide for yourself how well they fit together. An inconsistency that may be unresolvable for one reader may be easy to accept for another.
     
  5. tomswift2002

    tomswift2002 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You might also want to check the Kobayashi Maru by Julie Ecklar. The framing story is set (according to Memory Beta) in 2273, which is apparently years before The Wrath of Khan, but each character has their own short story set at the Academy decades before the 2273 sections.
     
  6. Freman

    Freman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Does the New Earth series have any continuity errors with the 'new' continuity novels, or does it fit?

    I'll read it regardless, but I only track down, for collection purposes, novels that fit with the bigger picture, for lack of a better term.
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    It's a bit iffy in how it interprets the post-TMP period. The historian's note at the opening puts it shortly after TMP, yet has Spock already a captain and Chekov already leaving for Reliant, which conflicts with most of the previous and subsequent post-TMP novels, which generally assume a second 5-year mission post-TMP. The official Pocket Timeline in Voyages of the Imagination bumped it forward to after that second 5YM, which mostly resolves that issue, I think. (Placed there, I think it fits fairly well with what I established about the pre-TWOK period in Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again, but perhaps not perfectly.) But I'm not sure if there are any other issues.
     
  8. Freman

    Freman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, I'll just rip the historian's note out of the beginning of each book. Problem solved. ;)
     
  9. ATimson

    ATimson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You'll probably need to Sharpie out any references to what uniforms they're wearing too. ;)
     
  10. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^As I recall, the New Earth books assume they're in TWOK-style uniforms. If we follow the Timeliners' precedent and put NE after the second 5YM, then there's no reason they couldn't be in TWOK uniforms by that point. Indeed, many of the post-TMP novels written over the past 30 years have assumed those uniforms were adopted no more than a couple of years after TMP. (My own post-TMP fiction is agnostic on the issue, since I haven't yet done anything set between 2275 and 2279. Although my personal preference would be to keep the TMP uniforms as long as possible, since I'm one of the few people who likes them and hates the TWOK uniforms.)
     
  11. Jsplinis

    Jsplinis Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I haven't read Kobayashi Maru since it first came out. Hence, all I remember of it is that Kirk and some crew are stuck in a shuttle raft and pass the time telling stories of their test.

    But since I don't remember the details of the recollections, how does Kirk's compare to the story as told in DC vol.2 #73?
     
  12. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    The version told in that issue is actually adapted from Julia Ecklar's version in The Kobayashi Maru. The dialogue's a bit streamlined in the comic, but otherwise it's the exact same sequence of events.
     
  13. ATimson

    ATimson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The first New Earth book explicitly has the transition between the two styles.
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I see. Well, it's not the only one that purports to depict that. Howard Weinstein's The Better Man alludes to McCoy still trying to get used to a new uniform design. (Although that novel is set in 2273 and was written at a time when the Chronology put TMP in 2271, and before VGR: "Q2" canonically put the end of the 5YM in 2270, requiring TMP to be in '72-3. Since the novels assume TMP to be in '73, I choose to put The Better Man very shortly after TMP -- right between Ex Machina and The Darkness Drops Again, in fact -- and assume it's those uniforms that McCoy is still adjusting to.) I think there are a couple of others as well.
     
  15. Mirak

    Mirak Cadet Newbie

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    Hi,

    I need a bit help with TOS novels and this seems to be the right thread. I'm currently rewatching the whole Trek (now in the middle of third season of TOS) and I do want to enhance my experience with some novels. Now I'm quite familiar with novels "from 24th century", but I know next to nothing about TOS novels or comics.
    My requirements for the novels and comics are these: They don't contradict established canon, they don't contradict each other and they don't contradict 24th century relaunch universe (minor mistakes and discrepancies are all right, we all know that even tv Trek is far from perfect in this aspect).
    Naturally, I would probably like to fill the voids between TOS and TAS, TAS and movies and movies themselves, but if there are some nice novels for example from Pike era, then by all means.
    I tried to do some research, but I haven't found anything really conclusive or complete. "Charting the novel verse" on this site is really nice, but it's more suited for people familiar with the issue.
    So the novels list should be something like Jsplinis posted, but with bit more info. (I don't know which are the A.C. Crispin's novels mentioned above)

    Thanks for any help.
     
  16. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Well, that limits you mainly to books published over the past decade. With no new Prime-universe canon being produced since ENT ended, there's less risk of contradiction, and the books do generally tend to keep consistent -- though there are certainly exceptions, books that make a choice to disregard the main novel continuity, such as the Crucible trilogy and The Children of Kings.

    A number of earlier TOS novels haven't been definitively contradicted yet, but there's no authoritative standard for which ones are "in" and which aren't. A given novel's discrepancies may be irreconcilable for one reader and easily reconcilable for another. Only you can decide for yourself which books you think fit well enough. And if you limit yourself to earlier TOS books that haven't been contradicted, you're kind of ruling out most of the really cool ones.


    There's no clearly defined "void" between TOS and TAS. I think most writers just treat TAS as the fourth year of the five-year mission, though there are one or two who treat it as intermingling with TOS. It's another of those things that come down to individual interpretation.

    But it sounds like my TOS books would fit what you're looking for. Ex Machina is a direct sequel to TMP and addresses some of the character transitions between TOS and TMP and between TMP and TWOK. Mere Anarchy is a series of six novellas spanning the entire Kirk era from pilots to films, and my installment The Darkness Drops Again is a followup to Ex Machina that further fleshes out the era between TMP and TWOK. And Department of Temporal Investigations: Forgotten History is a novel that spans the TOS era and early post-TMP era, making heavy use of TAS elements, portraying the end of the 5-year mission, and filling in still more of the period after TMP.

    The Vanguard series is definitely a must. It's not about the Enterprise crew for the most part, but it fills in a lot of TOS-era and movie-era backstory and fleshes out the universe from that timeframe a lot more. And it connects to elements of the 24th-century continuity as well.
     
  17. chris_masters5

    chris_masters5 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Not sure about continuity between stories but I've made a list of the TOS novels and Movie era novels I've read (and plan to read) might be of some help. There are probably some other good stories I've missed out. If anyone would like to add...

    Pike:
    Vulcan's Glory
    The Children of Kings
    Burning Dreams

    pre TOS:
    My Brother's Keeper Republic
    My Brother's Keeper Constitution
    Enterprise: The First Adventure
    My Brother's Keeper Enterprise

    TOS:
    Vanguard: Harbinger
    Vanguard: Summon The Thunder
    Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind
    Vanguard: Open Secrets
    The Janus Gate: Present Tense
    The Janus Gate: Future Imperfect
    The Janus Gate: Past Prologue
    Errand of Vengeance: The Edge of the Sword
    Errand of Vengeance: Killing Blow
    Errand of Vengeance: River of Blood
    Errand of Fury: Seeds of Rage
    Errand of Fury: Demands of Honour
    Errand of Fury: Sacrifices of War
    Vanguard: Precipice
    Seven Deadly Sins: The First Peer (short story)
    Vanguard: Declassified
    Section 31: Cloak
    Seven Deadly Sins: The Unhappy Ones (short story)
    Vanguard: What Judgement Come
    Vanguard: Storming Heaven
    That Which Divides
    Assignment Eternity
    The Eugenics Wars (1&2)
    The Rings of Time
    Allegiance in Exile
    Crucible Trilogy (not sure where to place this)

    Movie Era:
    ST1 The Motion Picture
    Ex Machina
    DTI: Forgotten History
    Spock's World
    Rihannsu Saga
    The Pandora Principle
    Duty, Honour, Redemption (Movies 2,3,4)
    The Unspoken Truth
    To Reign in Hell
    ST5 The Final Frontier
    In the Name of Honour
    Probe
    Excelsior: Forged in Fire
    ST6 Undiscovered Country
    Sarek
    Mind Meld
    The Last Round Up
    The Captain's Daughter
    Cast No Shadow
    Lost Era and Stargazer novels
     
  18. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    ^Don't expect much in the way of continuity between those. Too many contradictions to list!

    If you're going for all books in the era, I'd add in Dreadnought!, Battlestations! and The Lost Years novels too, between TOS and TMP.
     
  19. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Or, you could read 'em all and just ignore the bits that don't fit.

    All the novels are expected not to contradict canon when they are written, but as TOS movies, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT were being produced, all manner of large (and many tiny) plot points from past novels and comics would have been trampled by the unfolding "canon" and the other tie-ins. You're never going to find a definitive list of which books remain totally unscathed.

    You risk missing out on some really fun stuff because you're letting others tell you which books are "safe" to read. Are you also going to be scared off by typos? At least one TOS novel ("Mindshadow") misspells "Chekhov" throughout and mixes up Shras (the Andorian ambassador from "Journey to Babel") and Thelev (his deceased, Orion-in-disguise, aide).
     
  20. zarkon

    zarkon Captain Captain

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    Yeah, filtering trek books for adherences to whatever is a quick way to miss out on some of the very best trek books ever written, like "The Final Reflection"