TOS Enterprise WIP

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by blssdwlf, Apr 24, 2010.

  1. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    A cross-thread thought has occurred. I've been making frequent mention of your Enterprise refit length of 1,164' over in the "Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model" thread. Praetor's studies of the window spacings have borne out the deck heights of the TMP-E to be 9.5' in the saucer and 12' in the secondary hull, which seems pretty much what Probert intended with his ship length of 1,000'.

    However, with a ship length of 1,164' then these deck heights change to 11' and 14' respectively. Obviously the cargo bay set has the classic 12' deck divisions, but did you ever get as far as wondering how 12' decks would relate to 14' window spacings?
     
  2. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @Mytran - I'd have to check the window spacings but the way I had looked at it a while back was that the window spacings were somewhat independent of the deck height since Probert's internal design had the internal cargo bay deck a little lower than the entry port.

    I'll try and work something up for comparison in the next couple of days.
     
  3. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @Mytran - Found an older image but I think this is relevant.

    The image below is scaled at 355m for the TMP Enterprise but I think my comments are applicable for the 305m as well.

    The two points of interest are the torpedo and engineering hull airlocks. The torpedo airlock is on the same level as the torpedo room deck which would put those windows next to it at "hip level". The engineering hull airlock however is above the cargo deck and necessitates a down ramp. That would put the windows at head level.

    I believe because the windows aren't consistently applied relative to fixed airlocks that in the case of the engineering hull they can be independent of the deck height. On some upper decks the windows could be head height while the lower decks could be closer to leg height. So to me the internal decks of 12' still works at 355m because I'm not seeing a direct correlation of windows to deck height location, if you know what I mean.

    Note: The 305m ship with 12' decks there is some "float" of the windows. The 3 forward-most windows on the deck above the engineering airlock deck are higher on the deck (like 10' up) while the other windows on the other decks are at head level (6').

    [​IMG]
     
  4. B.J.

    B.J. Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    At least for the torpedo deck, there's this screencap:
    http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0247.jpg

    You can obviously see the person poking their head in the window. The window level is not an issue if you assume that the windows are designed at a height for someone that's sitting at a monitoring station, which this person is likely doing.
     
  5. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, but why is the window height different between the torpedo airlock and the engineering airlock? One is at hip level (or sitting level) while the other is at standing level. If the internal height from the deck to the window can be different despite a nearly identical external appearance then I would be hard pressed to argue that an internal arrangement can be derived from the external windows...
     
  6. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Here's the comparison image between 305m and 355m TMP Enterprises. For the 305m Enterprise, we can say there is a deck where the windows are but we can't say where it is as far as internal arrangement goes as windows can range from 3' to over 6' off the deck. Because of this, for my 355m version, the windows are independent of the decks.

    Click image to enlarge.
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    Blssdwlf, yes that is pretty much what I had been thinking as well. Nice diagram though, thanks! It's a shame that Drexfiles has gone down, I never got around to saving the hi-res images of the TMP cgi model. Aside from http://archive.is/46Qg, which only has the low-res images, does anyone know where I could get hold of the hi-res versions?

    Incidentally, a lot of the larger images I find on the internet have the airlock positioned way too high which is just wierd - anyone watching the film could tell that the dock needs to be more or less level with the shuttlebay!

    An additional point your diagram has highlighted, with regard to potentially moving the Recreation Deck to below the Cargo Deck - it certainly could not go between the windows, as that spot it now taken up by the engine core! Ah well, maybe further back?

    That piece of footage was actually reused from TMP, and as such bears NO resemblance to the torpedo deck exterior! As a matter of fact, it's not a perfect match for the Engineering Hull either, as the windows are too close to the airlock compared to the full scale model. Time for some more shutter-able windows maybe?
     
  8. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    The major reason for displacing the intermix shaft towards the stern is obviously the blue corridor apparently near the bow in TMP (Andrew Probert hated it because it contradicted the cross-section drawing he did and which Kimble used for the cutaway poster).

    But starting near the engine room control console I counted what look like 13 horizontal shaft elements. Assuming elements have the same length / width how long would the horizontal shaft become before it splits to feed the nacelles?!?

    If that would relocate the shaft where Probert envisioned it to be, I'd rather go with that and pretend it's a viewscreen instead (showing a blue corridor) - especially since it apparently doesn't exist anymore by the time of ST II. ;)

    The exterior number "5" indicates Docking Port 5 and that's the number we see overhead in the interior in TMP. However, I find myself unable to explain this:

    TANNOY VOICE: Cargo bay to launch crew. Travel pod is now available at dock six. (?!?!?)

    Some more shutter-able windows [TOS style], no doubt. :)

    Bob
     
  9. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, I realised that, but it's not really a problem as the Rec Deck has plenty of space to slot in under the cargo bay.
    The way the engineering set was built though, there would NEVER have been sufficient room to align it to Probert's original cutaway - even without the "long corridor" painted backdrop, the short corridor would still poke out of the front of the ship.

    A similarly timed arrival on the opposite side of the ship, maybe?
     
  10. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    If there were a viewscreen it would already include the short corridor. But I realize that the shaft for any turbo lift would remain a major riddle to solve (even in blssdwlf's alternate proposal, the turboshaft would still run through the blue corridor, I'm afraid).

    This brings back memories of a discussion I had many years ago with Shane Johnson. ;)

    Obviously, the docking port behind the bridge is DP 3.

    I'd assume that we do not have the interior volume to have two parallel torpedo bays but only one, thus the numbers there indicate the docking port "at the torpedo bay", i.e. torpedo bay [docking port] 1 (starboard) and 2 (port).

    With the one on the port side of the engineering hull being DP 5 (TMP), I believe the one on the starboard side would be DP 4.

    This would probably leave DP 6 to be one of the airlock and docking ports at the saucer's underside. Of course, it couldn't dock anything bigger than a travel pod.

    Bob
     
  11. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Sent you a PM :)

    I think alot of the fan/3rd party images do try to move the windows/airlock around which is why I like the one from Drexfiles as it is the CG TMP Enterprise. It is interesting that Probert had put the airlock slightly above the flight deck necessitating a ramp.

    Hmm - that's an interesting idea. Will look into that.

    Hehehe yeah, more shutter-able windows ;)

    I just did a test with 13 elements on my shifted to stern set and luckily enough it works out to the right length I have to the split. I'll put up a graphic tonight.

    Not really. That's a shot of a corner of the engine room which existed in TMP. You can see the edge of the door frame here and the door on the left here. The existence of this corner door in both TMP and TWOK does not negate the existence of the blue corridor in TWOK. We know the foyer still exists and it appears that the corridor is still there too in TWOK.


    Agreed.



    That makes the most sense. At the time there were other vehicles coming and going so it is very possible that it's another travel pod.

    I'm not seeing the riddle. The blue corridor is not on the centerline of the ship but shifted over to the starboard side. A set of turboshafts can run slightly port side and go straight up the neck. The tricky part though has always been the torpedo bays.

    Wait a sec - since they re-used external docking port 5 for both the torpedo airlock and engineering airlock I'm not sure we can tell what the numbers would be for the other ports. It'll be another one of those great mysteries. We could theorize that docking port 5 was re-numbered from engineering to the torpedo airlock between TMP and TWOK...
     
  12. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, according to the stage plan they apparently left some space on the port side to accomodate a turbo shaft there. Not much, but better than nothing.

    That doesn't really look like the lesser of two evils. We'd then have to make up our minds whether we really believe in two parallel torpedo bays.
    No, wait. Make that four torpedo bays...:eek:

    Bob
     
  13. kennysmith

    kennysmith Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    just remember this it is the ncc 1701 TOS enterprise from the tv show from the 1966 to 1969 only.
     
  14. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Here is the internals with the horizontal power shaft with the 13 elements matched. Interestingly, it works out for the 355m version but it comes up short for the 305m version (after moving the engine room forward)...

    Click image to enlarge.
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    Thanks for the PM Blssdwlf, it is very much appreciated. It's a shame that Drexler never released HD versions of these images, but now armed with the knowledge of what he actually did give us, I've been able to track down an alternative online source for Drexler's images:

    http://trekazoid.wordpress.com/category/constitution-class/

    Drexler's refit images are about halfway down. There's lots of other nice images on the page too, although I haven't checked their on-screen accuracy yet.

    As a colourful alternative, try http://startreklives.wordpress.com/2008/05/24/uss-enterprise-ncc-1701-refit/

    About a quarter of the way down, there are some VERY LARGE images of the refit. The airlock appears to be in about the same position as Drexler's and if the rest of the form is similarly accurate, this could be a great resource.

    Regarding the mysterious 3rd and 4th torpedo bays, its probably time to dust of this old article on the subject:
    http://www.trekplace.com/article01.html

    It is interesting to see that 13 segments will not fit properly within the 1,000' Enterprise. Probert seems to have solved this problem by making the first two horizontal sections double-length.
     
  16. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Thanks blssdwlf for the graphic visualization. :techman:

    Although not illustrated, I'm confident that the relocated-towards-the-stern intermix shaft would also fit nicely into the 1000' / 305m version.
    Additionally, it could explain why the "back wall " of the torpedo bay is slightly bent inwards (to make space for the still vertical intermix shaft behind).
    And the "photon exhaust" at the stern of the connecting dorsal could serve as a heat dissipator for the shaft. ;)

    This would also facilitate the accomodation of the vertical turbo shaft according to the turbo lift car schematic. Upon closer inspection I noticed that the turbo shafts in the engineering hull "list" towards the port side. Amazing! So the off center blue corridor ahead of the engine room seems to have been aligned off-center-axis on purpose to create the necessary turbo shaft space.

    While it's nice to see that the set designers probably payed attention to these details, it incredibly sucks how they ignored Andrew Probert's layout. :sigh:

    VERY colorful! What's up with the hump at the stern of the nacelle? ;)

    :lol: I reread the article prior to posting. While you could probably squeeze in a starboard torpedo bay # 2 (without the loading mechanism which would have to be closer to the port side and off the center axis), there's no way you'd have additional torpedo bays 3 and 4 at this location (unless these were somehow compartments that revolve like a centrifuge near this area).

    I slept the night over it and here is my proposal for rationalization: These panels (1, 2, 3 and 4) are actually loading indicators of some kind. When Kirk and company enter the ship torpedo # 1 is in the starboard, torpedo # 2 in the port firing tube. Just prior to the Mutara battle, they had additionally loaded torpedo # 3 and we seem them loading torpedo # 4 into the [port] tube (thus, the Enterprise has four torpedos prepped for the encounter with the Reliant).

    Fact is that after the torpedo bay (and its loading mechanism) had been rendered inoperational, Enterprise fired two torpedos from the starboard launcher, first one two destroy the Reliant's launcher pod, second to destroy the port side nacelle. Therefore, these torpedos already had to be inside the launching tubes!

    Good news coming from that would be that we have a much better chronological system for the docking ports (and airlocks):

    • Docking Port and Airlock 1 - engineering hull starboard side
    • Docking Port 2 (only!) - torpedo bay starboard side
    • Docking Port 3 (only) - command bridge
    • Docking Port and Airlock 4 - torpedo bay port side (apparently there is no airlock on the starboard side, because there is only one airlock control panel on the port side in TWOK)
    • Docking Port 5 (only) - engineering hull port side (as seen in TMP)
    • Docking Port (and Airlock?) 6 - starboard underside saucer
    • Docking Port and Airlock 7 - port underside saucer (as seen in TMP).
    (The Official TMP Blueprints clearly indicate these two hatches at the saucer's underside as "docking port - saucer")

    Assuming we take the TMP recyled shot ("Docking Port 5") in TWOK serious (as suggested by blssdwlf), the docking port numbers could have changed into something like this by the time of TWOK: 1 - bridge / 2 - starboard saucer / 3 - port saucer / 4 - starboard torpedo bay / 5 - port torpedo bay / 6 - starboard engineering hull / 7 - port engineering hull

    Anyway, as a practical result we'd have two airlocks on each side of the ship, one at the engineering hull and one at the saucer. :)

    However, assuming that the torpedo loading crane would be on the center axis of the ship, the size of the set would suggest that we are looking at an Enterprise not larger than 1000' or 305m, IMHO.

    Bob

    P.S.
    I think there is a possible explanation where the docking port confusion in TMP (travel pod docked at DP 5, intercom however says DP 6) might come from. Earlier on the orbital complex we saw an "interior" DP 6 behind Scotty. However, the travel pod departed from "exterior" DP 5 (same set of doors like the one used for the Enterprise). Somebody may not have noticed that for the "interior" of the Enterprise they changed the "interior" orbital complex from a "6" to a "5" to match the exterior door. Possible someone expected they did it the other way round (i.e. change the writing on the exterior door from "5" to "6").
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  17. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    I've also no doubt it would fit (and most of the long corridor too) but the engineering shaft would still intersect with the "arboretum" windows - although to be honest I've no problem rationalising those as an engineering space - the blue glow is perhaps a by-product of the constant M/AM reaction, and certainly matches the colour of the warp nacelles. The biggest problem with the 1000' ship is that the Cargo Deck is way too large for it - you would have to reduce the width at the very least, possibly the length a bit too. It's a real pain to be honest (given how short the cargo bay scene was) but since the creators wanted to show a REALLY big OPEN space, we are stuck with it :weep:

    That turbolift schematic is a nightmare! If it is indeed an accurate diagram of the turbolift paths throughout the ship, there would be barely any space for corridors, let alone anything else! What's more it is not even consistent with the very scene it follows - where's the Cargo Deck?! But it also eliminates the "official" location of the Rec Deck, so maybe I shouldn't be so hard ;)

    A good explanation (and the docking set up). Does that mean that there were already some torpedos in the tubes during Spock's funeral though?
     
  18. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Instead of a large botanical area we could just have two botanical alleys in the outer area (admittedly I'd still feel extremely bad about displacing Mr. and Ms. Probert which are the figures in Mr. Kimble's beautiful cutaway painting :(). The blue light could be emanating from the reactor area behind a transparent wall panel (not too dissimilar from the TOS Season Three rec room, although I don't believe it's down below).

    Possibly a visual illusion we get from the camera lenses they utilized in this scene. ;)
    I'd prefer to use the diameter of the docking port doors, constantly seen with actors standing next to these, as a size indicator.

    Most of it is a nightmare, I agree (where is the diagonal main turbo shaft established for the TOS Enterprise? :lol:). But the elimination of the Rec Deck in the saucer is a nice side effect, you really shouldn't be so hard.

    Thanks. Actually I just came back to fix my earlier statement but you beat me to it (happens rather often, lately).

    Because of the funeral scene, these wouldn't be torpedos # 1 and so on but merely torpedos having been placed in "launch" position and/or pad # 1,# 2 and so on. IIRC, the Enterprise fired three photon torpedos at the Reliant (four had been loaded). Thus, one had remained in "launch" position and/or pad # 1" when Spock's photon torpedo coffin was lowered and loaded into the "2" position.

    It's interesting to notice that for each casing lowered the corresponding number showed up on the delivery mechanism.

    In the scene in ST III we don't get to see the torpedo bay numbers. Can't say I'm unhappy about that. If this bay were showing the numbers 3 and 4 I'd have difficulties coming up with a feasible rationalization. ;)

    By the way, the TMP engine room footage looks a bit confusing. Kirk arrives on the upper level, the clear elevator seems to be on the right side. The wall above the horizontal shaft just shows a small panel with a crewman next to it.

    In a later camera shot Admiral Kirk has shifted to the opposite starboard side and - :eek: - the small panel has transformed into a large wall display with green lights.

    I should also note that when Scotty and Kirk run to what seems the nearest turbo lift to the transporter room they turn starboard although - as we'd discovered - the turbo lift should be on the port side. Probably Scotty was trying to catch up with Kirk yelling "turbo lift is on the port side, admiral!" :lol:

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  19. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Thanks Mytran - I'll check them out!

    Interesting. If that's the case, then all the elements aft of the double-length would be shorter. Since the production folks built the horizontal elements this long, the actual horizontal elements if halved would be crazy short and not go very far...

    I think I'll keep my build at the onscreen horizontal length and the horizontal elements all equal length :)

    But I do agree that to make the set work with Probert's 1000' Enterprise the horizontal elements would need to be lengthened. If I were to keep it screen accurate, I'd suggest making the elements past the first two elements stretch out.

    If you mean the "engine room moved back like in the 355m version" fitting in the 1000' version then the vert+horiz shafts would fit but the forward corridors would not as it sticks out the front.

    Yes - that's kinda what I've been thinking about as well.

    It definitely is an interesting detail although that schematic would suggest the turbo lift cars end up in the impulse/warp crystal deflector assembly area and somewhere in the shuttle bay which I can't see physically happening :(

    Yeah - another great mystery!

    Why would that be?

    It's very possible, although I'd imagine that they would unload the tubes once they were no longer at Red Alert.
     
  20. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    I dunno. The idea of being bathed in delta radiation doesn't sound appealing ;) Based on the lack of close-ups of the windows I'm favoring them as m/am radiation panels or exhausts and that section as part of engineering.

    I don't think you can escape the problem that the cargo bay is too wide for the interior of a 1000' hull. The side cargo pods extend out beyond the width of the hull and there are other small details that make the interior poke out.

    That makes sense that the "2" on the loading arm is to let us know this is Bay 2.

    Perhaps Bay 4 was blown up by Khan's phaser hit in TWOK?

    Kirk takes a scenic tour :) I actually mapped out his path based on what we see on screen and the landmarks do match up.

    Click to enlarge.
    [​IMG]
     

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