TOS Enterprise WIP

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by blssdwlf, Apr 24, 2010.

  1. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, every time I see someone model the pipes as a "full size" object trying to extrapolate from the set piece based on the idea that it's a forced perspective object, it just never really looks right. That's part of the reason I went with it being a smaller tapered object. That way it looks the same as it does on screen, no matter what angle the cameraman happened to be set up at. Also, the reason I decided it wasn't part of the engine was so I could put it anywhere in the ship where it seemed to make sense, if it wasn't a part of the engine.

    --Alex
     
  2. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    One possibility is that each "pipes section" is a power converter of some sort, switching the output of the M/AM reactor into a form useable by ships systems. That could effectively free up their locations in the manner Albertese has described.

    The reason that people try to use a "full length" version of the pipes is a desire to stay true to "designer's intent". Obviously the pipes were meant to represent a long structure, even if the limitations of forced perspective resulted in some pretty odd viewpoints.

    Assuming it's full length, what is the (in universe) reason for such odd views? My pet favourite isbehind the mesh is Safety Glass, which is so thick it distorts and magnifies the tubes section when viewed from anything except straight on ;)

    I sympathise with blssdwlf on trying to extrapolate those pipes - I mean how long are they supposed to be? 120 feet? 150 feet? You'd have no room in the secondary hull for anything else!
    It looks great though.
     
  3. Gagarin

    Gagarin Commander Red Shirt

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    Alex - I liked what you did with including the access ladders, though I'm not sure I'm a fan of the mutliple engine room / transformer concept. I suppose I'm more comfortable with non-exact renderings or reconstructions of the cathedral tubes.

    I'm shocked by the size comparison between the two engine room sets... never noticed. I only thought the difference was the middle console!

    Question - is it explicitly true that you can take 1 turbolift from, say, the bridge to all the way to the shuttlebay or engineering? Or do you need certain turboshafts to get to certain places? One circuit will get you all the way around the primary hull, and another circuit would make stops from the primary to the secondary?
     
  4. wildstar

    wildstar Commander Red Shirt

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    Concerning the height difference of the screen between the engine room and the pipe area, take a look at the position of the lower horizontal pipes as well, they're high in one pic than the other. Maybe they used a different 'wall with screen' wall, which shows less horizontal pipes, and is higher in frame.

    As strange as it sounds, the render still feels smaller, even though your comp looks perfectly lined up. Bizarre.
    Have you tried modelling it to the stage plans then using a camera match plugin (worley has one) to set camera position and lens? I'm tempted to try that some day.
     
  5. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    The horizontal pipes appeared lower in their first couple of appearances, then were jacked up higher after that. This is the most likely case since as far as I can see the screen wall is the same dimensions in both shots.
     
  6. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @Wildstar - Yeah - the room does feel smaller in the render even though it is fairly matched up. One day I'll pick up the Worley plugin to do the camera matching if I get too frustrated :)

    As far as I can tell, the pipes were just lifted up higher in later episodes exposing the third row of horizontal piping and the screen was not altered as Mytran indicated.

    @Gagarin - I think you could get all the way to the shuttle area from the bridge as there was no implied turbolift changeover in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", IIRC. Also, the refit Enterprise could go from the cargo bay to the bridge apparently non-stop.

    @Mytran and Albertese - Yep, I've tried with designer's intent but it just doesn't look right so I am switching to the tapered power pipes look going forward :shifty: :)

    Adding to the discussion of the pipes function and what is at the end of the pipes... I'm leaning that the end of the pipes in the "distance" is the reactor. The pipes might be a form of the future "linear intermix" conduit as seen in "The Motion Picture". Taking a look at this screenshot I could imagine this behind the TOS screen with the intermix pipe poking through it through the engine room :D

    http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp/themotionpicture0244.jpg
     
  7. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Had a lazy weekend but thought this might be of interest.

    Here is a mockup of where the s1 engine room will and will not fit in the primary hull :)

    You can see that the top image the pipe structure could fit through the thin section of the hull but the room doesn't rest on any deck.

    The middle image and bottom images show the room on either deck 5 or 6. The pipe structure sticks out of the hull if we go by designer's intent and would force the room more forward in the hull.

    I'll see what it looks like with a tapered pipe structure and try for placing it in the engineering hull next.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Not that I am saying that it will work or that I really advocating the primary hull choice, but don't forget that you have the "impulse spine" and the dorsal to play with as well. IOW, where the dorsal is, you are not confined by the undercut.
     
  9. Captain Robert April

    Captain Robert April Vice Admiral Admiral

    You are confined by the width of the dorsal, though.
     
  10. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thanks. I don't think I would have ever thought of that. :rolleyes:
     
  11. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @BK613 - I gave it a try and the dorsal hump/spine can fit a 45' long pipe structure. Because the spine slants down as it moves towards the impulse engines, the pipes can extend no further than 1/3 to 1/2 way in and won't reach the impulse engines.

    I'm not so excited about the ceiling being asymmetrical either.

    Oh well :) I'll play more with the width of the room and replace the pipes with the tapered version....

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    Don't forget that if you're using the tubes "as per the set" that they angle in vertically as well as horizontally. That may allow you to squeeze the Engine Room in.
     
  13. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @Mytran - Yep, the tapered version of the power pipes help. Now the limiting factor are the dimensions of the engine room. If it were to go in the primary hull, it can only go in on the inside of the undercut as it is too long and wide to go on the outside of the undercut. I can see it resting somewhere on deck 5 or maybe 6 to keep it close to the energizers.

    After watching "The Naked Time" it also seems that something funky is going on in the curved hallway going up to it. But in "The Ultimate Computer" we see another long curved hallway (although different.) I might try to work the differences in as a refit in the engineering section on the primary hull.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. kkozoriz1

    kkozoriz1 Fleet Captain

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    To borrow a phrase, Fascinating! Loving this thread.

    I did find a quote on Doug Drexler's site talking about his cutaway.

    "There would have to be an Engineering section in the primary hull (some people refer to it as the “Impulse Deck”). Before I began placing Main Engineering in diagram where I did, I got Matt Jefferies approval. Basically I asked him where Engineering was, and he looked at me funny and said, “In the Engineering section.”'

    http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/10/11/1701-cutaway/

    Speaking of designers intent.
     
  15. Captain Robert April

    Captain Robert April Vice Admiral Admiral

    I should put that in my sig line....
     
  16. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    That's some very interesting work by Drexler. I'm not a fan of the visual style of his cutaway, but clearly a lot of thought has gone into it.

    blssdwlf, those FP tubes line up really well! I also had trouble fitting S1 Engineering into the saucer, thanks that bloomin' undercut! It's a shame too, because I had a particularly interesting idea after looking at the S1 plans one day; the way that Engineering is located off the axis of the circular corridor led to think - what if there were two impulse Engine Rooms, one for each "jet"?

    [​IMG]
    The corridor is now a full circle, and there's even room between the Engine Rooms to run a turboshaft! I imagined that this would work extremely well with "full length" tubes, as they could reach all the way out to the impulse housing.

    But as you found out, the only way to fit such an impulse engine into the saucer is to lower deck 5 by about 5' and while this could work, it makes for an awfully tall deck!

    So, having written off my own layout as undesirable ;) I'll just address these points:

    If you go by what we see on the show, the ceiling is actually curved on both sides:

    [​IMG]

    What exactly are the energizers? I know they're referred to a couple of times in the series but that's it. Or more specifically, what is your interpretation of what they are?
    Could you be more specific? I've watched those scenes many times and what we see seems pretty typical:
    [​IMG]
    The only difference is that they've opened up the radial corridor near the Engine Room to allow Scotty to enter and exit through it.
    If you don't mind changing the angle of the Engine Room door, (and raising the ceiling) this is not too difficult. It does lead to an odd corridor layout however!
    [​IMG]
    It also means that you'll need to reinterpret Kirk's stroll to Engineering in Court Martial, but there's nothing to say that the corridor he walks along is just outside the Engine Room.
    Incidentally - does this mean you're not going to have any Engine Rooms in the secondary hull?
     
  17. Captain Robert April

    Captain Robert April Vice Admiral Admiral

    I think I might steal some of this....
     
  18. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Agreed, Mytran - I was heading in this direction myself until I thought maybe a test fitting might be in order - d'oh! :)


    Unfortunately, after trying to match this scene, it turns out we're looking at the back of the machinery that evil Kirk is climbing on and the ceiling curve we see is actually the one over the control panel walls (on the left side if you're looking into the room from the entrance). It turns out this episode we don't get to see the ceiling curve for the other side of the room which is kinda good as it gives me some flexibility as to how the room is shaped.

    I'm not sure exactly :shifty: other than they provide energy to systems. The energizers could be a form of the energy conduit seen in the refit-Enterprise that runs from the engineering hull to the primary hull and distributes power to the ship...

    Here is a rough outline on how I've categorized the various systems mentioned in the series:

    Power Generation
    - Main Power = M/AM Reactor + Warp Engines*
    - Aux Power = 2x Fusion Reactors (equaling 3 total reactors when you include the M/AM reactor)
    - Emergency Power / Reserve Power = Batteries

    Power Distribution / Energizers (Could be the same as "Transformer Banks")
    - Main Circuit = 4x Lithium (early S1) / 4x Dilithium (later S1) / 1x Dilithium (S2+) regulated
    - Auxiliary and Emergency Bypass Circuits
    - Regenerating Circuit

    Power Consumption
    - Star Drive/Warp Engines (x2)
    - Impulse Engines (x2)
    - Life Support
    - Sensors
    - Shields
    - Phaser Banks (x4)
    - Photon Torpedo system
    - Transporters
    - etc...

    *I do think that the M/AM Reactor and Warp Engines are tightly intertwined somehow. Perhaps the warp engines magnify or "turbocharges" the power output from the reactor and/or acts like a massive energy buffer that gets channeled back into the main energizer circuit. This would go to explain something like "The Paradise Syndrome" where the act of running them at full power for a phaser attack can burn out the engines.

    That was it :) I think now that I'm paying more attention to the episode I was surprised to see a corridor branch off and make a turn at an odd angle that didn't follow a radial or curved (like the main curve) path :D

    I'm willing to do that :shifty: :D I'd like to keep to the show so in the episodes that the long curved hallway is shown, it'll be up in the primary hull.

    I suspect what I'll end up doing is carving up enough space in both hulls to house the S1 and later S2 engine rooms and treat them like the bridge of the Enterprise during the movies where they can alter them with some ease.

    Oh no :) The other episodes where there are camera cuts and no long hallway featured directly connecting to the engine room will go to the engineering hull unless there was some dialogue to indicate otherwise.
     
  19. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    blssdwlf, would you be so kind as to post a drawing of your tapered pipe set up in orthographic projection with measurements called out? If it's too much a hassle, never mind, but I really think you've got it spot on and I've never been able to find hard dimensions for the set piece. (beyond what can be divined from overhead stage plans.)

    Thanks a bundle! And your work is nothing short of inspiring!

    --Alex
     
  20. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @Albertese - Thanks. I'll put together something for the tapered pipe set with some measurements for you in the next day or so. Keep in mind that my model is a "best guess" so it isn't a final say on the dimensions of what that prop is :)

    @Mytran - Here is a rough blocking out of what I think the primary hull engine room / impulse deck could look like. It takes the "twin jets" model but keeps it to a single engine control room. I tried to keep to what was seen on screen and expand out from it. It's subject to change as I watch more of the episodes (one by one!) :D

    I've put it on Deck 5 and left enough room for the S2 Engine Room to poke up into Deck 3. There is a large gap on deck 6 below the engine room for the turbolift shafts and other access ways to go through.

    I did bend the entrance a bit and retained that side corridor that Scotty runs to and from to get to a jeffries tube.

    A power conduit (ala TMP) runs up from the mains to power the impulse engines and also distribute power to the primary hull. In "The Ultimate Computer", I figure M5 taps into this power bank ;) :D

    [​IMG]