TOS Enterprise WIP

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by blssdwlf, Apr 24, 2010.

  1. mephit

    mephit Ensign Newbie

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    Hey! Glad your still interested in this project. Question for you, though, just to make things more complex. Do the reference heights for Shatner and Doohan you used include the height of their boot heels or is it the actors' personal heights? As I recall, the boots were pretty tall, like 2 or 2.5 inches or so. That might affect your console computations a bit.
     
  2. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @Mephit - Yep - the heights are based on the S1 lifted boots that Shatner and Doohan used. They're visible in the reference picture as well. It gets dicey if I can't see their feet though :D
     
  3. mephit

    mephit Ensign Newbie

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    Cool. Just thought I'd check. Glad to hear you've got all the bases covered. :)
     
  4. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    Good to see you back at it! Your discovery of 7'3" wide console makes a fair bit of sense when compared with the Season 1 set plans - specifically, those little gaps in between the consoles themselves:

    [​IMG]
    (click for larger image)


    The question is - what happened to those gaps in the series? I certainly don't remember seeing any! So, was the engine room in fact only laid out at 21'9" during episodes?
     
  5. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @Mytran - yeah, it's pretty odd. I'm going to try and calibrate the scale against a known height like the door to the engine room and see what numbers I get out of that.
     
  6. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Fascinating. Most fascinating. So unbelievably fascinating you wonder if it's real. :techman::techman::bolian:

    I can only urge anyone who has an interest in Kirk's Enterprise(s), its mechanical workings, structure et cetera to visit this thread. There are deviations from the main topic which however itselves are worth investigating. This definitely qualifies as some kind of Über-Thread I'd like to print out and have it binded as a reference book. Fantastic work of Peter C. and great input from a lot of obviously highly competent and devoted treknological fans.
    While reading I had the strangest of Déja-Vues: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=119751&page=16
    At the end of post # 229 there's a power distribution schematic which looks a lot like this: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x04hd/thenakedtimehd0987.jpg ("main engineering control panel") Is it possible to really give this panel a plausible meaning?

    I've also noticed that recently there had been discussions about the length (and size) of the Enterprise. In found this anecdote from the Making of Star Trek interesting: "The original series format called for a crew complement of 203 persons. Overall length of the Enterprise was originally estimated at approximately 200 feet. Now, however, with the Enterprise design firmly established, it became obvious these two points were no longer valid. According to Matt Jefferies' calculations, the full-size Enterprise would measure 947 feet overall. With that much room to play with, the crew complement was boosted to 430." (summer 1965)

    At that time the shuttlebay hadn't been constructed yet, but I'd say - depending what actual size you believe the Galileo shuttlecraft to have - that should help us to conclude a size range and obviously the upper limit would be helpful to feature circular corridors in the engineering hull and include seemingly high decks (unless you assume the overhead red areas to be holographic panels that create 'psychological space').

    Regarding the existence of the (often mentioned) "impulse deck" I also found this passage from the Making of Star Trek helpful: "Propulsion for the primary hull is provided by impulse power. The impulse engine section is located at the bottom rear end of the saucer. Headquarters for the engineering division is also located in this same area, as are main engineering control facilities plus sufficient repair, storage, and other facilities to service the primary section when detached from the star-drive sections of the vessel."

    Compare "Engineering Control Room" http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x04hd/thenakedtimehd0821.jpg to "Engineering Section" http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x10/Journey_to_Babel_038.JPG (sign readable upon entry of room...). And there are Scotty's commands in "Naked Time" to his staff: "engine rooms, cycling station..."

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
  7. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    I might as well say it before anyone else does - while behind the scenes materials (writers' bible, reference books etc) can be useful for divining the creator's intent, it's what actually happens on screen that counts at the end of the day...at least as far as this project goes! I have a similar goal and set of rules to Blssdwlf for my own Enterprise project, but there are any number of directions that could be taken, all equally valid and which may make use of Creator's Intent to a lesser or greater degree.

    I strongly recommend checking out Shaw's project, which attempts to recreate the Enterprise as originally envisioned by Matt Jeffries (especially in deck height). Sadly the thread is now closed but there's some great work in there and he has actually calculated the Enterprise as being slightly shorter than 947'

    Me, I say make it BIGGER :techman:

     
  8. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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  9. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Gentlemen, I believe I'm totally on your "page" as - like Mytran - I consider myself a "groupie for set accuracy" and feel that what's on screen or can or should be concluded from the visual and oral information is prime directive canon.

    I'm neither interested in a theoretical Jefferies' Enterprise and most definitely not in yet another Joseph version. :eek:

    I just quoted from The Making of Star Trek to illustrate that even the 947' figure is rather a best guess (considering what happened before) and that the impulse deck had been there from the start and is not any fan's invention.

    More to come in the next days. I would like to revisit some original ideas and concepts from the beginning of the thread that seem to have gotten neglected during the work in progress. Have a great weekend!

    Bob
     
  10. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    No worries Bob. Ideas that you might think are neglected will eventually get revisited :) The beauty of the TOS Enterprise is how many ways she can be interpreted and still work.
     
  11. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    Hear hear on that. And I have to say that Havoc92's work has a gorgeous finish, I am a big fan, it's really moved the goalposts for me!
     
  12. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Oh FYI - the web servers that the images are hosted on are being moved to a different facility according to my host provider and so this thread will be picture-less for several hours. Sorry about that!
     
  13. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    I’ll try a quick summary / index of this thread so far:

    Pages 1 – 3: Season One (S1) engine room observations + recreations,
    height difference to S2 engine room, studio set plan comparisons (Season 1/2)
    4 - 7: fitting S1 engine room into saucer stern, cathedral forced perspective or not, allignment of engine room (# 56 ), blueprint of impulse deck (# 60), position of engineering room in engineering hull (top view (# 64), how to re-interpret camera edits in circular corridors, Shaw quotes Holmes (# 90), volume of impulse engines
    8-10: dilithium crystals in TOS context, lateral cutaway with deck levels, S2 engine room with emergency manual monitor / life support and other rooms
    11-13: “Day of the Dove” camera angle, corridors leading to hangar deck, hatch locations engineering hull (# 166), TMP Enterprise
    14 –17: TOS energizer room (# 206), engine rooms in saucer and engineering hull (# 213), service crawlway room (# 221), warp power schematics and discussion, WWTD? (I prefer WWBD – What Would Brandon Do?), engine framework assembly
    18 –19: 3D cutaway views (# 262), gym/multipurpose room (270), self-illuminating Enterprise, graphic of battle at L-374
    20 -22: phaser control room, flight deck, warp chart, warp engine transformation
    23-25: dome of bridge, impulse engine detail, windows
    26-32: moving devices, length of Enterprise discussion, pre-Pike-Enterprise, comparison Enterprise-Reliant
    33-34: TOS orbits, new tools for the project


    Once again, I salute Peter Chung for having accepted the challenge to reconstruct Kirk’s first Enterprise based on what we and other average or casual Star Trek fans actually saw on screen (otherwise you’ll probably loose the audience).

    I’ve seen a lot of previous attempts, but usually felt that the artists either lacked competence (for credible engineering design) or passion (for accuracy) or both (Franz Joseph: “I’ve never been a fan of the show”).

    This is one of the happy and rare occasions where I see competence and passion working hand in hand. Not just a ship filled with decks and little place for mechanical components, not just a ship filled with a lot of air in the Engineering Hull (TMP Enterprise) but one filled with thought-through and believable engineering designs.

    I especially liked how Peter reinforced the warp nacelle pylon supports by using the beams from the flight deck ceiling and the circular struts with holes allowing door space for the flight deck’s observation corridor, brilliant (although the actual corridor set suggests there two be less struts. Maybe the flight deck can be shorter upon re-evaluation :)).

    Although I’m very late to this party, there are some questions / comments I’d like to add and hope these can or will serve constructive purposes, I’ll use the 3D views as a starting point http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=119751&page=18

    Looking at the long corridors (I only recall these from the pilots / footage re-use) the saucer hull seems to consist of four “quarters” which corresponds to what had been suggested for the TMP Enterprise by the turbolift display (and the four landing legs at the underside). With the TOS Enterprise this could be different. The studio set (S2 & S3) is a 120° “third” with turbo lifts at both ends (e.g. “Journey to Babel” and a large number of shots with the turbo lift at the other end of the circular corridor between the transporter room and sickbay). I can’t help but wonder if “slicing” the saucer just into three thirds would allow better options for future allignment (I’m currently writing down the turbolift locations and turbo lift numbers for each episode)?

    As for the size of the impulse engines I absolutely concur, especially given events in “Tomorrow Is Yesterday”. However, the spherical reactors (TNG style) can easily be confused with the antimatter container down below. The antimatter pods in the renowned Kimble cutaway of the TMP Enterprise were different, correct?

    As for the ‘cathedral’ it is obvious that the limitations of budget and available soundstage space during production led to the forced perspective (by Matt Jefferies own admittance), this was a compromise. But now that there is a chance to reveal the cathedral length as it was always meant to be, we are nevertheless stuck with the forced perspective despite a considerable distance to fill between the engine control room and the impulse exhaust at the stern?

    There’s this one proposal from Mytran in post # 56 that absolutely made a lot of sense to me http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=119751&page=4

    On the S1 studio set itself the engine control room was placed in such a manner to allow the travel of turbolift cabins in between which undoubtedly is a must have for any plans. From what I have been able to see at the current WIP stage the studio plans have been ‘tweaked’ (this is no longer what we saw in “Naked Time”) and the Jefferies Tube near the dead end corridor close to the control room is missing. Personally, I prefer the parallel allignment as the impulse engine hatches on the saucer’s upper side are also symetrical (of course, there doesn’t necessarily have to be a full room on the starboard side, just the cathedral which can probably be monitored from the room on the port side. I assume the gym/multipurpose room can’t really go there?).

    A very important discovery (thanks!) was the different height of the engine rooms in S1 in contrast to the one of S2. Again, I can only suggest to look at this set from the actual production point of view. For S1 they only had this one set which had to double as the “engine control room” on the impulse deck (“Naked Time”, “Court-Martial”, “Space Seed”) and the “engineering section” in the engineering hull (“Enemy Within”, “Conscience of the King” – the main engineering control panel is angled differently to probably create the illusion of another engineering room: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x13hd/theconscienceofthekinghd240.jpg).

    When they finally constructed the bigger “engineering section” for S2 (located in the engineering hull) the old set had to go. In “Omega Glory” it looks like they tried to keep the illusion of two and different engine rooms by having Kirk in one with lights off and then showing an empty one in full illumination.
    Most noticably is how they changed allignment of the S2 (and S3) engine room with the studio set. This is the one that literally stands in the way to allow turbolift travel from the saucer to the engineering hull – it therefore has to belong in the engineering hull (maybe there could even be windows to look out from the emergency manual monitor? Would be a romantic backdrop for the scene with Scotty and Mira...:luvlove:).

    One schematic I definitely wanted to see was a top view of the studio set’s circular corridor inserted into the engineering hull and I got my wish: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=119751&page=5

    I wholeheartedly agree with Mytran (many unconventional but inspiring and great ideas to solve issues) that one should only acknowledge the dimensions of the sets we can actually conclude from the footage and take the liberty to ignore parts we don’t see (but know these are there because of the studio set plans). But regarding S1 I have seen a couple of unmistakable circular corridors in the engineering hull (decks 12 and 14) and I expect to see more of these while I’m working myself through the episodes – in the WIP plans I’m unable to locate any of these.

    The only practical solution to this riddle seems either to make the ship bigger or the corridors (in engineering hull) tighter.

    Again, I have to argue with the practical production approach: Did the producers really intend to confine the actual circular corridor studio exclusively to decks 5, 6 and 7? The audience has never been on a starship and all they become aware of is a circular corridor but they couldn’t be sure whether it’s in the outer areas of the saucer or wrapped around the yellow bottom circle of the engineering hull (a good excuse to have any kind of circular corridor in a structure like the engineering hull).

    As it seems to me, the current WIP layout for the engineering hull has little space left to accomodate these corridors, but the inevitable question has to be, whether the (conjectural) engineering components have to be that large?

    Where to place the gym / multipurpose room? Could it be at the back of the ‘teardrop’? The reconstruction approach seems to have curved angles that would nicely allign with the outer hull of the teardrop (and to the poster who claimed that Pike’s quarters didn’t match any exteriors, I believe he forgot the teardrop and its single windows).
    The phaser control room, on the other hand, is quite a bitch. The angled in walls of this engine room redress could suggest this to be in the center of a circular deck and given the phaser cooling mechanism probably in close proximity to the lowest part of the saucer hull.

    Keep up the great work,

    Bob
     
  14. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Regarding the corridors leading to the hangar deck I'm under the impression you had rationalized this by having several different decks leading to the different levels of the hangar deck. Wouldn't just one be sufficient?

    http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=119751&page=5

    The (tighter) circular corridor arround the "yellow circle" at the bottom of the engineering hull could have been the one Matt Decker arrived on in "Doomsday Machine". There he took a corridor leading to the port side of the ship and made his way to the shuttle repair shops using a corridor close to the outside of the ship.

    The circular corridor segment (curvature of actual studio set) with a turbolift on the port side McCoy and Spock arrived in "Immunity Syndrome" is further back to the stern of the ship (it's probably the same corridor segment Kirk, Spock and McCoy used in "Journey to Babel").

    While it is odd that Kirk and Spock used a different route in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", that corridor piece suggests another doorframe (starboard right next to the one from IS and JB), but it also leads to the same hangar deck main door.

    Bob
     
  15. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    I went with different corridors on different decks because:

    1. JTB and TIS showed the hallway going to the pressure door to the hangar deck. JTB showed that there was a side hallway next to the "A" frame. I placed the TIS hallway as the same hallway as their were no contradictions.
    2. DM's hallway put Decker's path very near the hangar deck. Due to the lack of width of the engineering hull I simply stacked the hallway above the JTB hallway and had them share the same turbolift shafts. I could've put the hallway below the JTB but I saved it for machinery space instead. It could not be the same as the JTB hallway since the pressure door wall was now angled and had the angular braces on it.
    3. LTBYLB hallway I placed at the flight deck level since they just landed the shuttle and their was a green tint light behind where Loki enters from which reminded me of the green tint light present where Kirk looks down at the flight deck in "TCOTK". I placed it on the port side of the ship to leverage the turbolift shaft.



    Can you illustrate out how you arrived at this? I've watched that episode many times but the only information I can tell was from the signage that put him near the hangar. (BTW, I'm not using a tighter circular corridor around the yellow circle.)
     
  16. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Thanks for the recap! I'll try to answer some of your comments but please bear in mind that its a work-in-progress :)

    That's only if we're comparing the spherical AM container to TNG reactors drawn on an MSD (do we ever see an actual spherical reactor other than Defiant's ?). We do have an excellent example of a spherical AM container as seen in "Obsession" in TOS which is where I got the idea from. :)

    You're welcome to try fitting it in. The problem is the size and length of a "non-forced perspective" cathedral structure precludes easy fitment into the primary hull with the undercut AND the 2 story tall engine room. The other problem (and it's more for me because of my "Thermian" approach to this project) is that there are simply too many scenes where we see the cathedral from angles that make it impossible for me to assume it is a force-perspective. Unlike TMP where they filmed the forced perspective engine section, they never really broke that illusion. TOS, OTOH did so for this project the cathedral will remain as seen from all the angles that it was seen at.

    I liked it too but ran into a problem testing it. See post 58.

    I'm following that same idea by having at least two engine rooms that are fairly identical or having some minor differences. At least one in the primary hull and one in the engineering hull. I do look at Enterprise as a ship that was constantly being tinkered with and having minor refits to account for the newer engine rooms, the faster speeds, the feminine computer in TMIY, etc.

    I assume you are referring to "Mudd's Women", "Enemy Within" and "Dagger of the Mind" for decks 12 and 14? IIRC, we never saw enough of the hallways to say they were circular. Curved, yes. I'll have to re-watch them again. FWIW, I simply loosened the curve on the hallways in the engineering hull but kept the overall length and widths.

    I am tempted to make the ship larger. But the only way I'll do that is if the flight deck requires a larger ship (and all signs point to Yes) as it is the only thing that has a direct connection to the exterior of the ship.

    Or the producers were clever enough to hide the circular corridor's "circleness" through camera cuts and tight shots of the hallway. I don't have too big a problem of making the circular hallway tighter near the center of the primary hull and less tight as the circle gets closer to the rim. Nor do I have a problem making the curved hallway less tight for the engineering hull to give it a slightly curved look unless it was obvious in the camera shot.

    My approach is to fit the big rooms in first and see what space is left. I'd like to think that there was fantastical equipment hidden behind radiation plating and walls that we just were not privy to. I remember when I first saw TMP's engine room and thought, wow, that's big spanning multiple decks. What would the more "primitive" TOS engine look like?

    I think you're recognizing some of the fun challenges I have on this project :) The other thing that I have to consider are the connecting hallways as seen in the episode when placing the rooms. It's a fun challenge to place the rooms in such a way that the hallways can still connect somewhere.
     
  17. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    I'm currently working on schematics for the engineering hull but given my lack of CAD skills I will have to resort to traditional techniques using the Franz Joseph blueprints as a background on which to overlay the actual and "tweaked" studio set plans.

    I don't think that Decker necessarily arrived "near" the hangar. He merely arrived on the H(angar) deck level (deck 13 according to your cutaway) and that sign near the ladder could simply be a deck marker that tells people on which deck they are.

    Nevertheless I believe he arrived at a (semi-)circular corridor near the yellow circle which corresponds to the circular corridor of deck 12 above (Kirk's provisional quarters in "Mudd's Women") and further up the one leading to the "Engineering Section" ("Ultimate Computer", "Journey to Babel"), above which there is the corridor next to the Auxilary Control Room (deck 8) and the ladder down to the upper level of the Engineering Section ("Doomsday Machine"), although Scotty and his enginners seem to have taken a detour through the other rooms on the starboard side upper level. ;)

    The general problem with the external windows in Kirk's (and Mudd's) quarters simply is that the only feasible explanation is to have these in the engineering hull next to a circular corridor (or a piece of it). Same with "Mark of Gideon", it's a curved outer wall that could only be in the engineering hull or the 'teardrop'. But even in the 'teardrop' (did they recreate the entire ship or just the saucer?) there would have to a tighter circular corridor.

    Bob
     
  18. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Many thanks for taking the time to reply to my tiresome comments!

    If there had been a spherical reactor on Defiant, I presume it has been in "Enterprise" or TOS-R. But you're right, we don't need to rely on either of these as there is, indeed, an excellent example in "Obsession" (although in the photon torpedo system context it fits even better because of the allusion to a cannonball).

    I was looking at your cutaway in post # 60 and if it wasn't for the (conjectural) reactor I'd think making the cathedral longer to at least allign its upper part parallel to the upper side of the saucer might be a good compromise (same in the engineering hull). I liked Mytran's idea of a distorting transparent (and radiation-proof?) panel and Geoffrey Mandel seriously suggested that the cathedral in the engineering hull is just a monitor display of the "impulse reaction chamber".

    I would have considered the refit concept credible but ironically your own observations (# 37) revealed, in my opinion, that we are looking a two distinct engine rooms (i.e. "Engine Control room" in the saucer and "Engineering Section" in the engineering hull). ;)

    Good news, the flight deck (and these fabulous b&w pictures) is the reference point. For the length of the shuttlecraft will you take the length of the studio set or what the inside volume suggests?

    The challenges are definitely fun, it's like a giant jigsaw puzzle. I'm focusing on the turbolift system as a starting point and then go from there. The deck plans for the engineering hull I'm working on will reflect the turbolift locations and I hope I can get them connected in a credible way.

    Will you be doing the Auxilary Control Room and the S3 Recreation deck room anytime soom?

    Bob
     
  19. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    While the cabin set for Kirk and Mudd's quarters did indeed feature windows (as per the original set design plans) they are never actually used or referred to as such in the episode itself. Nor are stars even visible through them!
    As a result, all they really are is black inset panels in the wall of the cabin - function unknown.
     
  20. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, I took the "Shuttlecraft Hangar Deck" sign that he was not on the same level as the flight deck. Since there was no space for another hallway at the hangar deck level due to the width of the engineering hull, it made sense to me to put the hallway between the flight deck and the hangar deck hallway used in the JTB and TIS.


    Interestingly enough, if you watch "Mudd's Women" you won't be able to easily tell how curved Deck 12 is because of the wide angle lense, the camera motion and the position of the camera. All you can tell is that it's got a curve to it. We catch a glimpse of Deck 12 again in "The Enemy Within" when Fisher calls for help. A later shot with evil Kirk skulking around may or may not be on Deck 12 because of the way it was cut.

    IIRC, the only episode that shows the entire length and curve of that corridor set leading to Engineering is "The Ultimate Computer". The other episodes only show short segments of that hall via cuts which could then easily be dropped into the engineering hull. Only "The Ultimate Computer", IIRC, would put the engineering room action in the primary hull.

    One more thing - in my Thermian interpretation, I "don't know" of this circular hallway that is used over and over again in various cuts and editing. So I approach each hallway scene leading up to a room as what I can actually discern from it on screen and not that I know it's part of a larger set.

    As Mytran has pointed out and I've got an image in this thread that illustrates the only two windows we've seen are in "The Mark of Gideon" and "The Conscience of the King". The insets in the cabins were never shown to have the outside stars which indicates just a shelf or some cabin inset.

    The way they filmed the path Kirk took you only see a tiny portion of the corridor before they cut to them zig-zag entering the observation room. The curvature of the inner wall suggests that they are near the middle of the engineering hull.

    Actually I was referring to the sphere for a warp core. Reminds me a bit of the ol' Romulan Cloaking Device :)

    http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/05/01/defiant-warp-core/

    For my purposes, the cathedral needs to work in all the angles that were shot on camera. That rules out compromising on the shape. A distorting panel or display again would have to be able to match up to the shots as shown.

    Yep. In my version you can see that there are two distinct engine rooms, one for the primary and one for the engineering hull. However, the engineering hull space using TMP as a guide is pretty credible to me as it can be worked in as an evolutionary step. I'm just going backwards to guess at what the TOS guts would look like.

    Because the flight deck was shown in the series only from the front of the deck looking aft, I will not use the the other angles of reference pictures of the forced-perspective shooting model.

    Good luck on your work. Would love to see you start up a thread here on your project. I'm in a phase right now where I'm enjoying making other TOS ships before focusing back into this thread so it'll be a while before seeing other rooms.
     

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