TOS Enterprise WIP

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by blssdwlf, Apr 24, 2010.

  1. Gagarin

    Gagarin Commander Red Shirt

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    Can we just pretend that, in general, the lift position didn't change in TOS? Pretty sure it wasn't intended - just a camera and set positioning snafu with the wild sections (or were they not wild at that point?). =)
     
  2. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    Well, what happened in real life is that the bridge set was set up for filming "The Cage," stored while the network was making up it's mind, reassembled (differently) for the filming of the second pilot and then broken down again and moved to the studio where the production would actually be made (a totally different stage area (Actually a whole different lot IIRC, but I might be wrong)) and reassembled for the final time, this time in a third configuration that stayed more or less the same for all three production seasons. So it wasn't just a screw up of the wild sections. As far as I know, they were always placed in the right order throughout the show. If that's not true and someone has an example of a section is the wrong place I'd like to see it, but I'm not aware of anything like that.

    I do find myself looking as the middle row of blinking lights a lot during shots on the bridge and at least Spock's, Uhura's and Scotty's stations are always in the right spots. I know because I recognize the displays, I'm not as familiar with the other ones, though.

    --Alex
     
  3. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    Well, what happened in real life is that the bridge set was set up for filming "The Cage," stored while the network was making up it's mind, reassembled (differently) for the filming of the second pilot and then broken down again and moved to the studio where the production would actually be made (a totally different stage area (Actually a whole different lot IIRC, but I might be wrong)) and reassembled for the final time, this time in a third configuration that stayed more or less the same for all three production seasons. So it wasn't just a screw up of the wild sections. As far as I know, they were always placed in the right order throughout the show. If that's not true and someone has an example of a section is the wrong place I'd like to see it, but I'm not aware of anything like that.

    I do find myself looking as the middle row of blinking lights a lot during shots on the bridge and at least Spock's, Uhura's and Scotty's stations are always in the right spots. I know because I recognize the displays, I'm not as familiar with the other ones, though.

    --Alex
     
  4. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @Albertese - for some reason I thought "The Cage" bridge wasn't wild like WNMHGB and regular season bridge which was a new build with wild sections?
     
  5. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    So looking more at the WNMHGB bridge, it seems that it's a little more complicated.

    If I use the main viewer as the reference point for being forward centerline, then the turbolift position didn't change between The Cage and S1. The helm station and Captain chair just happen to be rotated to their right 18 degrees.

    If I use the Captain's chair and Helm station are the basis for the forward facing, the turbolift is moved closer to centerline by 18 degrees and the main viewer is moved off centerline by 18 degrees to their left.

    Interestingly, it appears to be very deliberate as the forward left railing is shorter in length to accommodate the more "compressed" port side of the bridge. Since we don't see parts of the forward starboard bridge, perhaps extra equipment was installed their for their extra-galactic mission pushing everything to the portside?

    [​IMG]
     
  6. circusdog

    circusdog Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    There is an interesting shot where Kirk, Spock and Mitchell exit the turbolift onto the bridge and for a moment you can see that the consoles are supposed to appear symmetrical about the forward viewscreen:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    And a shot of Spock at the "end console":
    [​IMG]
    They probably move the console out of the way to make room for the cameras.
     
  7. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    This is actually a good shot to look at. Notice that the helm station/captain's chair is pointing to the right of the main viewer. Mitchell's station is actually facing the forward starboard railing...

    EDIT: Thinking of a person driving a car... it's almost like someone thought, since the driver (helmsman) is on the left, why not shift the viewer over to the left?

    Thanks for the screencaps! I've updated my diagram to reflect the briefly visible station :)

    Agreed on the console next to Spock.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2011
  8. circusdog

    circusdog Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Kind of makes you wonder what's behind the "window" in this shot from "The Cage":
    [​IMG]
     
  9. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You would have to scale up the Jefferies bevel version for the bridge blister to match FJs blueprint, leading to a largers vessel, which would be fine--a follow on to Constitution perhaps. BTW the FJ tech manual version seems to be the Matt Jefferies sketch, but even simpler.

    Don't know if you have seen this yet:
    http://the-grey-ghost.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/big-e-drawing1.jpg
     
  10. Gagarin

    Gagarin Commander Red Shirt

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    I bet only shooting from one side sped up the bridge scenes - that set had some problems as originally built (according to the books).
     
  11. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    It probably did make it easier to shoot from one side. The WNMHGB configuration is definitely the most unique for the TOS ship :)
     
  12. MGagen

    MGagen Captain Captain

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    Your ideal scale is a hair over 2% larger than 947' -- Given the references available for the size of the bridge set and the exterior dome, this is well within the margin of error. It is hardly conclusive enough to support an uncompromising rejection of the originally stated length. Either figure may work. We just know one of them was stated by the designer.

    Not sure who you're arguing with, here. I began and ended my post with an acknowledgment that everyone is free to imagine an Enterprise of whatever size they wish. I was merely responding to a post that maintained that the hangar deck was the only reasonable driver for finding the scale of the ship. I made a well reasoned argument for why the bridge is a more reliable guide.

    And at the very least, MJ's original figure of 947' is not "silly." Neither are those of us who prefer his scale. That is all I have to say about the matter.

    M.
     
  13. MGagen

    MGagen Captain Captain

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    I was only addressing the original Enterprise scale. My reference to the Phase II design was merely to prove that MJ intended that exterior tube to be the turbo housing. Jefferies' involvement ended with his Phase II design. Anything beyond that is irrelevant to my argument.

    Please don't misunderstand my point. I was taking issue with your statement "There is nothing that ties the bridge to an external feature for scaling purposes." I was not saying you should change the size of your model.

    I am greatly enjoying your project.

    M.
     
  14. Tallguy

    Tallguy Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You know, that's almost exactly how I see it. Cool.

    Except for the "military" part. 1) I don't think the Enterprise's defensive role changed a jot. And in TOS we see the E lugging around ambassadors / officials / colonists / performing police work just as much as Kirk mentions in WNMHGB. Roddenberry's stated mission for the Enterprise is an old "Hornblower" style ship of the line. Which means you do it all because you're the only one out there.

    Plus: The only time we see crew people (or civilians?) out of uniform is in the two pilots. Shades of the Galaxy class!
     
  15. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    Not really true... (1067-947)/947 * 100 = 12.7%. Pretty far from 2%.

    I did alter one detail... I made my lift shaft tube a bit taller than was on the production version of the ship, as well as having it straight, and of a constant diameter (the part on the miniature is pretty crude, really, and seems to have been just sort of "stuck on and puttied" without too much care for precision). It's not really too noticeable, but it's a compromise I made with full admission that I was deviating from the real miniature.
    Not "arguing" so much as "discussing."

    You posted the comment about the bridge sizing, so I was replying to you in that regard, but I'm not "arguing" with you. just tossing out comments about the issue we're discussing.
    Yes, you did. I didn't agree with that particular conclusion, however, based upon my own work, but that's another case of "your mileage may vary."

    I find it odd, sometimes, how people seem to read in "intent" to posts on the 'net. It's a discussion... it seems sort of "dead" to say that nobody can argue opposing points. :p
    Don't misquote me... what I said was only that those who treat that number as some sort of "holy article of faith" are being a bit silly, not that it's silly to prefer it. Nor was I necessarily attributing that to you... quite the contrary, in fact. As you said, you did make it quite clear that you don't have a "religious level of ferver" about this... and my comment was thus clearly not directed towards you.

    There are a few people who actually get ANGRY if you question the "holy 947'" however... on the same level as if you'd suggested re-editing the entire TOS series to use the JJ-Prise instead of the TOS ship, as if a small shift in scale (which, I would argue, helps things match up better) is somehow on the same level as a total eradication of the original series design.

    THOSE people are... yes, silly. I'd hope you'd agree.
     
  16. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    Mostly true. We did see Uhura in her civvies in "The Tholian Web." But I can't think of any other example. You'd imagine there would have been someone in a rec room or someplace, but I can't remember any.

    --Alex
     
  17. Psion

    Psion Commodore Commodore

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    Janice Rand in "Charlie X". Kirk wore a jumper over a black turtleneck in "What Are Little Girls Made Of". And he and Spock wore 20th century clothing in "City on the Edge of Forever" and "Assignment: Earth".

    I'm brain-farting on "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" ... was McCoy in Yonadan garb at any point?
     
  18. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    Okay, yeah I forgot about Rand in CX. I'm not sure I'd count Kirk in WALGMO as it's essentially the uniform of those guys on Exo III not really civilian duds.

    And I really don't count Kirk and Spock in 20th C clothing in CotEoF and A:E as those were both sort of "undercover" and dressed in local costume for the mission, not in their own clothes on the ship. If we were to include those occasions then that opens it up a lot and we should also count Kirk and crew in "Return of the Archons", Kirk and Spock undercover on Organia in "Errand of Mercy," Kirk and Spock dressed to the nines in "A Piece of the Action," Kirk and McCoy undercover on Neural in "A Private Little War," Kirk, Spock and McCoy dressed as Nazis in "Patterns of Force," the guys in neo-Roman slave T-shirts on "Bread and Circuses," Kirk in Romulan gear in "The Enterprise Incident," Kirk as Kirok in "The Paradise Syndrome," and Kirk and Crew in those Greek get-ups in "Plato's Stepchildren." None of which is an example of what they might wear in their off-time on board the ship.

    As for ATWIHAIHTTS, I don't think McCoy ever did change his costume.

    --Alex
     
  19. Tallguy

    Tallguy Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I was referring to the rank and file crew, not Our Heroes. But even with the above examples, only two apply (since the others are off ship): Uhura and Rand. And both of those were in their own quarters.

    I'm just pointing out the The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before featured scenes intended to show the crew off duty and relaxing out of uniform and we never saw that sort of thing again. If it weren't for TNG I probably would never reach the conclusion that any of those people might be civilians.
     
  20. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    There was a lot more variation in clothing early in the series. We used to see jumpsuits, anti-radiation suits, pocket-covered "load-bearing vests," special clothing for medical personnel, and so on and so on.

    By the end of the third season, they were down to only the basic tunics for pretty much everybody, though. I suspect that this was a cost-management measure, but it's a shame. I really liked the variety of uniforms seen in early episodes.

    Now, for civilian clothing, well.. in TOS we saw very little of that, and it was generally lacy frilly things for girls, or very basic "jumpsuits" for men. I suspect that''s part of why they went so overboard in TSFS with the various civilian styles (and I feel for Walter Koenig for having to wear the "Buster Brown collar" to this day!)
     

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