TOS Enterprise WIP

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by blssdwlf, Apr 24, 2010.

  1. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @Mytran - excellent spotting that opaque ceiling in WNMHGB!

    @Cary L. Brown - Even though Roddenberry might have intended it to be a windowed ceiling dome it doesn't appear to be that on screen in the interior shot. There does appear to be a small opening near the very center, so it could be some type of framework in the opaque ceiling that just happens to be covered up by ceiling panels as per your suggestion (ala TMP). The small opening could lead upward to some kind of glowy-light machinery that's part of the sensor dome above. I'll give that a go to model at some point when I make it up to the bridge :)
     
  2. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    To be entirely fair... we never saw the ceiling of the bridge at all, did we? And what little portion of the "above the lighting cove" region we saw was simply black. And, of course, from a brightly lit room, most of the time all you'd be able to see would be blackness.

    The only STRONG argument for an entirely enclosed ceiling would be "Balance of Terror," I suppose... but then again, if the nuke going off just a few hundred meters ahead of the Enterprise didn't blast it to vapor, obviously the shields blocked most of that. Still, you'd think that more radiation would go through a transparent dome than through hull material, as a rule...
     
  3. WinstonSmith

    WinstonSmith Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    um, didn't mytran just post a picture that showed the ceiling only a couple replies before? the one that blssdwlf referred to in the post you quoted? sorry if you're talking about something else, it's entirely possible I've misunderstood you ;)
     
  4. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    CLB: I have no problem with the dome itself being transparent, I just don't think it should act as a window over the bridge. After all, this is a sensor dome, right? Where is all the sensor equipment supposed to go? ;)

    I forgot to mention, there is another shot of the bridge "ceiling":
    http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.php?album=71&page=35
    (top left)

    OK, so it's not exactly a ceiling - You can see from the pattern of shadows that in both ITITNB and WNMHGB it seems they just hung vertical flats on top of the existing bridge wedges to enable the director to film his desired shot. Was it (on low resolution TVs) meant to represent a curved dome ceiling? Possibly. But if not, the ceiling would have to be even higher, at least 14' off the deck level!

    One final thought. If the dome were truly a window, then it might appear black from the inside, as CLB described. Except that in the Trek universe (even TOS) this never happens - every time they look out of a window from a fully lit room, loads of stars are visible! Must be that futuristic Transparency they use...
     
  5. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    Well, I put the "hanging flats" into the same category as the "curved corridor in front of main engineering" and so forth... basically, things that we're permitted to "squint" at and pretend were "really" otherwise. :)

    What they did for the TMP bridge actually works quite nicely... better, even, for the TOS bridge than the TMP bridge.

    I did a quick search and found this. It's very crude, but it does sort of illustrate the approach I'd probably take, were I starting from scratch here and were not trying to replicate "original intent" on my own model in this regard. :)

    http://www.dynamiceye.net/gallery/startrek/Enterprise-TOS5.html
     
  6. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @All - Good finds on all the links.

    I'm leaning towards the very tall ceiling after looking at the two screenshots. In the middle of the ceiling would be lights and framework that is barely out of shot. (Actually, we do see a piece of equipment, perhaps a spotlight, angled in the WNMHGB shot.) Above that would be the sensor gear in the above. In all likelihood it wouldn't be a window.

    I don't have a problem for the framework to come down a bit by the time of TMP as more gear is put in above the bridge :)

    I'm quite willing to fudge the layout if it makes sense to do so. My "Thermian" procedure goes like this:

    1. Make it screen accurate if it is visible, even if it does not match the Designer's Intent.
    2. If I had to guess (because it was never shown) then it would need to match the context of the series as much as possible.
    3. If I had to fudge (example: curvature of the hallway) make the change as minimal as possible. (example: I kept some of the curve in my secondary hull layout. But for the saucer, I recognize that the curve would change depending on how far out the hallway would be from the center so fudge :) )

    [​IMG]
     
  7. circusdog

    circusdog Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Where did the inspiration for this come from? The indentation doesn't seem to be consistent with TOS. Is it a remastered feature?
     
  8. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    Nope, the only place I've seen anything like that is in Deg3D's version. Just call this "artistic license." :)
     
  9. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    Ummm... maybe I'm missing something, but I can't recall any times that we saw out of a WINDOW (as opposed to seeing a viewscreen) where we could see stars, from the character's perspective, in TOS.

    The Enterprise's windows were only shown a couple of times. Everything else ever seen was on a viewscreen... and was almost certainly a computer-rendered image based upon sensor returns rather than a "direct view out the window."

    Is there some "window shot" in TOS that I'm missing?
     
  10. Chemahkuu

    Chemahkuu Admiral Admiral

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    No. The bridge dome is shown up close in the original and remastered episodes, no window, just a plain hull all the way around. The dissolve shot on the top dome from The Cage is the only thing remotely like that. Me thinks the poster has seen a little too much Abrams.
     
  11. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, there was that scene in "The Mark of Gideon" where we see what appears to be an actual "window"? Then there’s also the shuttle observation deck scene from "The Conscience of the King", but that probably doesn't count since the "window" looking out doesn't match up with any corresponding detail on the outside of the ship?
     
  12. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    In "Conscience of the King" Kirk and Lenore are in the observation deck over the flight deck and there are two windows looking out to the stars. It's on the opposite side of the windows over the flight deck which would be the outer hull. Now, if you want to ID that as a view screen, that's your business, but if they are view screens, then why are they set so far into the wall and why have two of them side-by-side? I'm convinced they are actually windows and not view screens.

    There's also "The Mark of Gideon" but I'm not sure that business counts as it wasn't really the Enterprise, but rather, a construct built by the aliens to trick Kirk.

    So, yeah, there's windows. But if you're talking about the Bridge view screen, then no, that was just a monitor.

    --Alex
     
  13. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    I think the MOG window can be allowed, since it showed Kirk what he expected to see (i.e. stars, at least at first). This (in my mind, anyway) is backed up by the windows in COK, through which blatant stars are seen.

    BTW, I do like that Carrara shot. Since we never saw the ceiling at such, there's no reaosn to disallow it at all either, and it makes a nice bridge (if you'll pardon the pun) between TOS and TMP
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
  14. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @circusdog - Good question :)

    If you are referring to Indention A then:

    The original inspiration comes from the idea of adding plates that would mount flush to the back that would slide around or fold out to "transform" between different configurations.

    If you are referring to Indention B then they came from visually confirming the "duck tape" in the series footage from the Smithsonian reference shots I had found via google.

    Just an FYI, I am NOT using any new-FX shots for reference.

    I've included below some of my references and a close-up of impulse area on my Work In Progress:

    [​IMG]
     
  15. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @Cary L Brown - a few :) As the guys have pointed out, there are the two observation deck windows from "The Conscience of the King" and the window from "The Mark of Gideon" which I count as I agree with Mytran that the outside is what Kirk expected to see.

    (Correction)There is also possibly an early one from "The Cage/The Menagerie" from Pike's quarters that was made into a window in TOS-R but in the original version it appears as a green curved panel. (/Correction)

    And there has been suggestion that Kirk's quarters in "Mudd's Women" also featured windows but I'm not so sure I can see any stars there. I've included in the reference images below a shot of Kirk's quarters from "The Enemy Within" but the window either has it's shutter down or it isn't a window at all but some wall shelf or something...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2011
  16. Shaw

    Shaw Commodore Commodore

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    You're talking about TOS-R, in TOS you couldn't see out side the ship.
     
  17. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Good catch, Shaw. Updated reference image above. Thanks!
     
  18. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    Well, go back to my original comment, and I said "except for those two"... or something close to that, anyway. Those are the only two I know of... well, those two and the "Cage" dome shot.
    Yeah, that wasn't a window... for the simple reason that there is noplace on the ship where there could be a windowed wall of exactly that shape. If you're dedicated to the idea of accepting TOS(r) as official, well... let's just call it a high-definition holographical display... which might just as well have been showing a landscape outside of Tucson or a view out a naval vessel's porthole. (Which, for the record, is something I expect every cabin would have... something to avoid the mental issues of being locked up in a cramped tin can for years on end.)
    I've heard a few people talk about those being windows, but again, I see nothing to indicate those as being windows at all. They COULD be "displays" but they really look more like shallow bookshelves, don't they?

    Also, remember, we know that Kirk's cabin is on Deck 5. And we know that there is no way that there could be any window on deck 5, much less one with that angle on it ( since the exterior hull at Deck 5 is a very, very shallow angle in the opposite direction, after all!).

    So... we have two windows, plus the "Cage" dome shot. Both window shots are rectangular windows, and only one can be seen out of. And we don't really know just how bright the rooms are supposed to be where these shots are taken, do we?

    In terms of the landing bay's observation gallery... I'd fully expect the lights to be dimmed, if not totally off, when Kirk is taking his conquest on her "tour." It's worth noting that there ARE two windows in "approximately" the correct spot in the model...

    Since I don't feel like doing any new renders or so forth right now, I'll just toss out a shot of my model I've already created, which just happens to very effectively show the location of these two rectangular windows relative to the hangar deck.

    [​IMG]

    And I expect that the window we see in "Gideon" is in the dorsal... probably the starboard side (port shown here, by the way), second row from the top, near the aft edge of the dorsal:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2011
  19. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @Cary L Brown - please note I had corrected my reference to The Menagerie after Shaw's comment.

    I made a mistake in including a shot which I had not had time to verify. I am NOT using any references from the new FX aka TOS-R for this project so sorry for the confusion.

    I had included the crew quarters references as "possibles" for completeness, but agree that there are only two actual scenes where the crew look out the windows to see stars ("Mark of Gideon" and "The Conscience of the King").

    Then again, that's the same reason why there are no window matches to "The Conscience of the King". The windows at the back of the secondary hull are rectangular when they need to be square to match up. For the purposes of my project, these windows are there but normally shuttered and thus blended into the hull.

    The "Mark of Gideon" could be matched up to the curve of the secondary hull, but again it might go to a window not normally visible in external shots when shuttered.

    Kirk's cabin before moving to Deck 5 was on Deck 12 ("Mudd's Women"). I'm only mentioning them as possible windows since they were mentioned by others but I'm not convinced of it as noted above.

    At this point, I am not considering "The Cage" dome shot a window at all since it appears to be just the Talosian-version of story-telling :)


    I don't think it would work for the neck as the scene shows a curvature to the wall suggesting somewhere in the secondary hull while the neck is vertical. (You are looking at the posted reference shots, right?)
     
  20. circusdog

    circusdog Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Yes, understood.
    This also. Thanks for the Smithsonian pic. The "duck tape" explains why I didn't see an indentation on the restoration pic I found of the impulse drive:
    [​IMG]
    BTW, the two outside holes had screw-eyes in them for suspending the model by wires, edited out in the films.
     

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