TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Sho, Oct 21, 2012.

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Rate The Persistence of Memory.

  1. Outstanding

    71 vote(s)
    55.9%
  2. Above Average

    42 vote(s)
    33.1%
  3. Average

    12 vote(s)
    9.4%
  4. Below Average

    1 vote(s)
    0.8%
  5. Poor

    1 vote(s)
    0.8%
  1. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    I don't know that still sounds like Data is back from the dead, which would still be cop out. I mean you even said that it can be taken as Data is back from the dead with a few differences.
     
  2. Tom Riker

    Tom Riker Lieutenant

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Spoilers in the subject, don't know how to use spoilder blocks

    When Jasminder died I litterally said out loud "oh my god." it was sudden, brutal and heart wrenching for a character I didnt' even like. I've never read a sentence where a man pulls a phaser and just vaporizes a main character. This was Tasha Yar all over again.

    I felt bad for Worf. He's taking the term Lady Killer far to litterally. I think this may be the start for a Worf he returns to the Empire, his Starfleet career has cost him three women now.

    This may be the arc where he joins the High Council and perhaps becomes Governor of Hatoria.
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    I'm not done yet, but the book makes it pretty clear that this is Data 2.0.
     
  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Nobody is getting my point -- probably because you're judging it without having actually read the book, which is no way to go about having a discussion. I'm not saying it has to be interpreted one way or the other. My whole point is that it's ambiguous enough that you can interpret it either way depending on your personal preferences.
     
  5. Ronald Held

    Ronald Held Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    I had to redownload mine today. Expecting to start it by Sunday before I read to many spolier like posts.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    I get your point just fine. But the explanation Soong gives, he's simply downloading the memories of Data from B4 into a new android body. Hence, Data 2.0.
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    From what you say, I don't think you've reached the end of the book yet. It's not as simple as that at all.
     
  8. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Just finished the book and I don't really see anything that conflicts with my original statement. Even Data says that his life before had concluded.

    As far as a rating goes, I'd say its average. Solid but not spectacular.

    It had a lot of interesting ideas but it bogged down in the middle. Didn't care for the death of Choudhury, just a road we've been down a couple of times already with Worf. It felt repetitive. Have a feeling that it'll lead Worf to question his fitness for command and whether he wants to stay in Starfleet.
     
  9. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Which makes me wonder if their not planning to try to some how fit the novels into leading into something based on or similar to Star Trek Online.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Or Star Trek: Countdown?
     
  11. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    I'm a few chapters into part 2, and enjoying it so far. I was a little sceptical about Soong showing up (new android body aside), because revealing characters presumed long dead to actually be with us still, only hiding, is difficult to pull off even for an author as good as Mack (for all that it's consistant with Soong's behaviour). However, part 2 is reassuring me so far, because any objections are being soothed by the great first-person insight into Soong's character. I don't recall Mack attempting this before but thus far it's very successful. I guess that's the first reminder that tricky plot elements can be swallowed easily if the writing is good enough. Whether the novel will pass the second round of that test when a certain someone is returned to the ranks of the functional in...some capacity (yes, I've been reading some of your spoilers)...well, I'll have to wait and see. :shifty: I've got a sneaking suspicion that I'm going to be left in an uncomfortable place regarding it; I'll explain more, naturally, when I've finished the book and discovered if I'm right or not.
     
  12. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Well Countdown is part of STO's backstory so its not like it has to be a one or the other thing.

    Though if they go this way I'm going to be further annoyed becuase it makes the novl guys come off (to me at least) as incapable of furthering the Trek timeline on their own.
     
  13. zarkon

    zarkon Captain Captain

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Book turned up today, just finished reading it

    -Choudhury - awesome, wish I hadn't been accidentally spoiled on the fact that that was going to happen beforehand, would have been even better.
    -Data - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_xjBAd5G84

    Overall a pretty fun book. As previously mentioned, flint being mentioned outside of TOS feels kinds weird, but I like Vandal Savage style characters anyhoo.
     
  14. Sto-Vo-Kory

    Sto-Vo-Kory Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Great book, typical high-quality writing from Mr. Mack.

    Part 2 was remarkably well-written and entirely engaging. In part 3, the stylistic use of intercuts, such as "Three Minutes Ago", were a welcome storytelling technique and added a bit fun to what could have been some very grim scenes. It reminded me of a Moffet-penned Doctor Who episode.

    The "story developments" of the novel were tactfully handled and I imagine them stirring very strong reactions in the reading audience (if the posters on this thread are any indication) but I will say that actual readers of the book will feel much more positive about the story's conclusion than those who seem to be basing their opinions on heresay. Going into this book, I was very ambivalent about what I suspected was going to occur with a certain erstwhile crew member, but the strength of Mr. Mack's story won me over. I'm now excited to read the next volume and see where the narrative goes from here.

    On a side note, I wonder when we'll be hearing from the mysterious figure that popped in and out of Part 2: in the second volume of this trilogy or the third? I don't think the summoning device he left was destroyed in the destruction of the privately-owned moon, so I'll assume it's still in play somewhere -- possibly hidden inside that cool Archeus ship and just waiting to be activated.

    I, for one, can't wait to read what happens next.
     
  15. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    It's not about a conflict. Your original statement simply overlooked some additional factors.
    The "android body" is not just an empty receptacle. As I've said repeatedly, it has fundamental differences from Data's original body and brain. Physically, it has a lot of abilities Data didn't have, and neurologically, the firmware and operating system of its positronic brain are significantly different from those of the original Data's brain. Basically this is the Soong android's brain, a brain designed to replicate the living Soong's neural architecture and personality, but with Soong's memories wiped and Data's loaded into it.

    What you're assuming is that Data's memories represent the entirety of what Data was, and the book does, in fact, make clear statements that conflict with that assumption. It establishes in Soong's internal monologue that there are two components to consider here, Data's memories and his programming. The reason downloading Lal's memories into Data didn't turn Data into Lal, and ditto for Data and B-4, is because they were just the memories, not the operating system itself. Soong's intent was to create a new body for Data with an operating system that could handle Data's, err, data, since B-4's OS couldn't handle that load without crashing. But that new body was destroyed by the Borg, and ultimately Soong sacrificed himself to let Data have his body -- and that comes with the distinct hardware and operating system of his brain, which were designed for Soong rather than for Data.

    So while this new entity has all of Data's memories, he still has Soong's brain structure, which could mean he'll retain aspects of Soong's psychology or personality. Or that the parts of the two beings could synergize in unpredictable ways.

    And again, my point is NOT that anyone has to believe it really isn't Data or that it really is. My point is that it doesn't matter. Those who want to believe it's the same being are perfectly able to do so if that's what satisfies them. But those who want to believe it isn't are equally justified to come to that conclusion. There's no point arguing over it because it satisfies both groups.

    But whether you think it's the same Data or not, he's still changed. It's not just a return to the status quo. He won't just be back at the ops station on the Enterprise giving exposition. He's got a new outlook on life, a new set of goals. He's turned down the offer to return to Starfleet and gone off on a new quest of his own, seeking the Commonwealth of AIs. He can even use contractions freely now. As I've been saying, if you're going to resurrect a character, that's the right way to do it -- by making it a new direction for the character rather than just a lazy reset.


    And he also said that even he wasn't sure if he was the same entity as the original.
     
  16. Markonian

    Markonian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    I'm still reading but closing in on the ending.

    So far, I'm only confused by the fact that Leah Brahms isn't mentioned. Weren't she and Geordie supposed to marry? They don't get any younger and it's time for some children.

    Also, it just hit me that Šmrhová is the tactical officer from Countdown. Thus, the female pilot is likely Joanna Faur. Cool tidbit. :bolian:
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2012
  17. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    "Supposed to" according to what? We've seen many times that any given glimpse of the future in Trek is just one possible path.
     
  18. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Well theres also the fact that Indistinguishable From Magic kind of had them dating.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Everything you've stated here points to Data 2.0. I'm not sure how anyone can interpret it any other way. Different body and different operating system plus not having all of the originals memories. How could he be the same person when he missed a defining moment of his existence?

    Our resurrected Data is a copy of the original. A clone from a memory perspective. I'm not criticizing the method, I personally think it was the best we could hope for.
     
  20. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    I've never understood why saying that something is like comic book is used as a negative? Sure they might not always be the pinnacle of good story telling, but they've also been around for decades, made billions of dollars, launched some hugely popular movie and TV franchises, and introduced cultural icons like Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man. I don't see where any of those is a negative.