TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Sho, Oct 21, 2012.

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Rate The Persistence of Memory.

  1. Outstanding

    71 vote(s)
    55.9%
  2. Above Average

    42 vote(s)
    33.1%
  3. Average

    12 vote(s)
    9.4%
  4. Below Average

    1 vote(s)
    0.8%
  5. Poor

    1 vote(s)
    0.8%
  1. WarsTrek1993

    WarsTrek1993 Captain Captain

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    *Resists the urge to click spoiler tags while awaiting a chance to buy this book.*

    I hope some more risks are taken in this trilogy, though. I like when authors shake the universe up, example:

    Destroying Deep Space Nine, which took some balls.
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    The book takes a different approach.
     
  3. rfmcdpei

    rfmcdpei Captain Captain

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Do we know that no consultation with the civilian government occurred?

    Starfleet is a branch of government of the Federation, not of Galor IV. Presumably any consultations would have occurred at the level of the Federation, i.e. the President and Federation Council.
     
  4. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Damn, I liked her a lot. Poor Worf too, the guy is just doomed when it comes to love. I think if I were him at this point I'd just not get involved with anyone else.
     
  5. Stoek

    Stoek Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Clearly the Trek is strong with me. Just a few weeks ago I underwent an inexplicable and undeniable compulsion to buy a copy of IC for Kindle. I enjoyed it immensely (again) and now am doubly glad that I did so.
     
  6. Ood Sigma

    Ood Sigma Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Absolutely outstanding. I was completely riveted the entire time. I never wanted to put the Kindle down. Part 2 was just so wonderfully done. David absolutely nailed Noonien Soong's voice and thoughts.

    I've read all of Trek Lit, and this was definitely the best novel since... well, probably, the Destiny trilogy. I can't recommend it highly enough.
     
  7. shanejayell

    shanejayell Captain Captain

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    About the only thing I'm... less than please with in the book is how Geordi's progress in Indestinguishable from Magic has been pretty much completely rolled back.

    Lost his 'Captain of Engineering' rank, apparently. He's even back dating a girl who transferred OFF Enterprise in IFM. I thought Leah Brahms MOVED IN WITH HIM after IFM. What the....

    Bad editing? Or did Dave not get a copy to read before starting?
     
  8. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Well, we all know how bad Geordi's luck with women has perennially been. Maybe things didn't work out with Leah.
     
  9. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Or they hit the reset button a little too hard this time.
     
  10. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    It was meant to tie into All Good Things...
     
  11. shanejayell

    shanejayell Captain Captain

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Then it should have been at least mentioned. Bad editing, if not possibly bad writing.
     
  12. Sho

    Sho Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Haven't read IFM yet (but really looking forward to it), but I was rather fond of the Brahms-LaForge coupling on the show ...

    Edit: So how does TPoM do at establishing compatibility with Countdown, given that Data is "back"? Because if TPoM allows us to assume things are headed in that direction, AFAIR it also establishes Brahms as marrying La Forge.
     
  13. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Too early to say. Data (or an android who calls himself Data and has the original's memories) may be "back" among the living, but he's not back in Starfleet, and at this point, it's too early to say whether his path will take him there again.

    Also, he doesn't exactly look the same way he did before; the new android has a more human appearance, although he could modify it if for some reason he wanted to look like his old self.

    So while it doesn't specifically conflict with Countdown at this point, it doesn't seem to be building toward it either.
     
  14. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    'calls himself Data and has the original's memories'...

    If it looks like a duck (beyond trivialities), quacks like a duck, even thinks like a duck, then it IS a duck.
    The 'it's not really Data' the book apparently attepts is highly unconvincing, a feeble excuse to have the cookie and eat it too.

    The book is a standard resurrection story - much like 'The eternal tide'.
    Well - trek lit has just become the equivalent of a generic comic book line.
     
  15. Newspaper Taxi

    Newspaper Taxi Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    To Edit XYZ:

    Check out the logic paradox of Thesues' ship.

    Now imagine if Thesues' ship was sentient being. That's the dilema with Data.

    The comparison to Janeway doesn't work here because Janeway isn't a ship whose had all of her planks replaced; she's just a dead soul one of the Gods decided to bring back. That's more of a Deus ex Machina.

    EDIT: I suppose if you wanted to get hyper technical you could argue that Janeway's Ressurection was partially a subversion of the trope in that her revival didn't solve the core conflict as originally expected. But it still took a 'God' to resolve the conflict of letting her survive her fatal encounter with the cube.

     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
  16. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    I can only assume that Edit XYZ hasn't read the book, or he'd never claim
    that the difference between the original Data and the new one is trivial. There are major differences that we've barely begun to see the extent of yet. Even if one does choose to believe it's somehow the "same" Data, it's still a Data who now has emotions (again) and a very different, more powerful and versatile body, and who has been profoundly changed by his experiences with his father, to the extent that he's not sure he'll ever return to Starfleet. Either way, it's anything but a reset button.
     
  17. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Newspaper Taxi

    Theseus' ship is less a paradox and more a matter of defining terms. And it applies only in the real world:
    For example - for a japanese, function and form defines the identity of something, not the atoms that made this something at one time.
    For a greek, it's the atoms that make an ancient temple/etc.

    About conscious beings (humans); indeed, for all living entities:
    Did you know that the atoms that make you are completely replaced every ~7 years?

    For the trekverse/ANY fictional universe:
    The fictional persons/things/etc have no material existence. They are merely an amalgam of characteristics.

    Meaning, the same characteristics that made Data/anything else will always make Data/said anything else.
    No semantic hair-splitting about replacing planks that never exited in the first place.


    About Janeway being resurrected by a god - irrelevant. It doesn't matter whether one's resurrected by technobabble, god, or the tooth fairy - or any imaginative combinations the comic lines came up.
    It is STILL cheap, blatantly standard resurrection in its essence, meant to bring a popular (read - which sells comics/books) character back.

    Why cheap?
    Because, while technobabble/magic allows for fictional resurrections, the real world does not. In the end, resurrections are only a facile wish-fulfillment fantasy, on the level of those marketed toward 7 year olds - regardless of the in-universe ...babble you came up with for 'explaining' it.
    And because it cheapens the story - now everything is fair game for a reset button; who cares about what happens in a meta-story only interested in milking some popular characters for all they're worth, where everything can be reversed AKA nothing has any 'punch'.

    If you truly care, Newspaper Taxi...well, it doesn't take much to get you invested in something, on the proverbial 'edge of the seat', does it now?
     
  18. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    I know that's one of those many inaccurate factoids that most people assume are true because they've heard it many times, like the old "we use 10 percent of our brains" myth. In fact, different body tissues are replaced at different rates. Some cells, like blood and skin and stomach lining, are constantly being shed and replaced, while others, like heart and brain cells, and of course stem cells, stay with us throughout our lives. Every woman is born with her ovaries containing thousands of egg cells, only a few hundred of which will go through ovulation before she dies, so those cells and their constituent atoms are with her throughout her entire life. The atoms within cells can be replaced at varying rates, but many of those replacement atoms will be recycled from elsewhere within our own bodies. Studies of people born before and after atomic testing increased the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere have shown that in the former category, most of the DNA in their neurons had carbon isotope ratios consistent with the atmosphere before nuclear testing, proving that most of their neurons were formed in childhood. That proves their neuronal DNA molecules were still made of the same atoms they'd been made of decades before.



    As long as you keep making assumptions without having read the book, you'll just embarrass yourself further.
    As I've already stated repeatedly, yes, "Data 2.0" has most of the "charateristics" (or at least the memories) of the original, but the crucial point is that he also has new characteristics that the original didn't have. Those memories are being run by different, more advanced software and firmware modeled on Noonien Soong's own brain architecture, so I expect he's going to turn out to have an amalgam of Data's and Soong's personalities -- as I said, like a Trill joining. This isn't about the philosophical niceties of identity -- it's about the fact that, from a strictly story-based viewpoint, this is not a return to the status quo ante, because there are real and meaningful differences in who Data is now, whether or not you believe he has continuity with the original.
     
  19. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    My copy just arrived. Starting it now.
     
  20. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

    Fine.
    If you insist on being utterly accurate in this tangential issue, then yes, only about ~90% of our atoms change in ~7 years (feel free to search for the exactly precisely etc accurate values if you wish).

    This biological fact more than proves my point regarding this nature of living systems in relation to an overthought greek definition-seeking of the concept "the same".

    And in relation to thought and consciousness - tell me, Christopher, is your mental world - your thoughts, feelings and aspirations - the same as 7 years ago? As 1 year ago?

    I'm aware Data received character development in the discussed book.
    And?
    Receiving character development (AKA changing in response to events as Data would) does NOT undo the resurrection.

    As, apparently, is needed to say, character development != new character; of course, it does not erase the resurrection.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012