TNG era episodes into movie transitions idea..

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by los2188, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. los2188

    los2188 Commander Red Shirt

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    This is more of a thought than a question, but I've always wondered why they didn't utilize some of the TNG era TV shows to set up movies. Granted, you probably couldn't do that with Voyager, but it would have been a nice intro to, let's say First Contact. What I pictured is the most current, at the time, episode of DS9 before the release of First Contact have a scene or two where let's say Sisko talks about the coming Borg threat in which he sends Worf and O'Brien in the Defiant to help fight the Borg and you see them leave, and then that's it. The action would pick back up when it does on First Contact. And then the DS9 episode right after the First Contact release has them maybe being towed back to DS9 and there to be a few scenes regarding the battle. Same with DS9 and Insurrection. You'd be giving a little bit of info that wouldn't ruin the movie. I mean I think it's safe to say that we all knew the Borg would be in First Contact before it was even released so you're not ruining anything about the movie, plus I think it gives a much smoother flow and explains Worf's appearances in the movies much better. And for the record, O'Brien should have been in a least one movie only it it was a cameo. I think he earned that. What do all of you think?
     
  2. SchwEnt

    SchwEnt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I see what you're getting at. It's a good idea, I don't know why it never happened. I could imagine the suits gunning for the idea, using the series eps as giant promos for whatever movie might be coming up next.

    Hell, UPN used VOY eps to promote wrestling programs on their network, among other things. But not a ST movie?

    I know TNG had somewhat of a tie-in with TUC, using Unification as a big Romulan peace plot with Spock as TUC had a big Klingon peace plot with Spock. But that's not the same thing really.

    And TNG had the crossover with DS9 with the "Birthright" two-parter, but even that was a wasted effort. Those TNG eps really had nothing to do with DS9 at all, so they couldn't even get a thing going between two concurrent series. to say nothing of a series with a feature film.

    Yeah, I don't know why a transition or tie-in never really was used. You'd think it'd be good for the network/studio with the promotion, good for the fans to see the continuity porn, and so on. Huh.
     
  3. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree that O'brien could have and should have gotten a cameo in First Contact. There's no reason he couldn't be on the Defiant for example. It wouldn't really add much to the movie save that "Hey, there's O'brien" but it would've been a nice cookie.
     
  4. Balrog

    Balrog Commodore Commodore

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    Paramount and the shows runners were extremely shortsighted. I seem to recall the reasoning had to do with wanting the TNG movies to appeal to wider audience. They feared if the shows tied into the movies, those who didn't watch the shows would somehow be confused.
     
  5. SchwEnt

    SchwEnt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'd say O'Brien in INS, more than anything.
    We left off with O'Brien going back to Earth after the war.
    Then next up, Riker and Troi are in Alaska for their wedding.
    So what happened? Keiko and Miles didn't get an invite?

    And they start tossing in Wesley and Guinan for cameos anyway... where's O'Brien? He's already back to Earth, so no one need to invent a reason for him being there (unlike, um, Wesley and Guinan).

    I don't know if Meaney refused a cameo or had schedule problems or whatever. But I've never read of any plans to include O'Brien in the wedding scene... on Earth, where he already was. And he was fairly close to both Troi and Riker anyway, it was perfect.

    And this was INS, where O'Brien doesn't make the cut... but in the deleted scene, they got Quark to show up??
     
  6. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Except Insurrection took place -during- the Dominion War(direct mention by Picard during the Fed joining ceremony at the beginning and by Ruafo about half way through)... I think you've confused Insurrection for Nemesis. And as far as I know Quark never was in the wedding party, even the deleted scenes. Do you have a link to back that one up?
     
  7. SchwEnt

    SchwEnt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You're probably right. I'm not exact in my memory with DS9 original airdates and INS premiere and Dominion War timeline.

    Even still, post-war or not, O'Brien would be an easy choice for an appearance at the wedding. Of all crossover characters, being invited to a wedding for old friends is a
    perfect setup. No forced explanations or excuses.

    Of course, I was also surprised that none of Worf's Enterprise friends came to his wedding to Jadzia. But hey, what can you do?

    The deleted Quark scene in INS wasn't at the wedding party. It was at the end right before beam-out, Quark showed up with some Dabo girls in tow. Really odd appearance out of nowhere.

    I don't have any links, I thought it was common knowledge regarding deleted scenes from INS. I think wikipedia or Trekcore or Memory Alpha has some info, it's not that obscure.
     
  8. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This is a legitimate concern. Deep Space Nine wasn't exactly burning up the ratings, it was the Trek series underdog. Miring a TNG movie with DS9 continuity would require exposition that would be ultimately pointless in the grander scheme of the film. No standalone movie needs a TV series to set it up.

    Besides, would the producers of that series really want to set aside an episode, or scenes of their show for an unrelated movie with a different cast and characters? From what I recall, Ira Behr and crew hated the Defiant being pummeled in First Contact. And aside from getting Worf on the Enterprise, what good would it really do? Fans of the series would know a Trek film was coming, they wouldn't need the series to do a primer. The TNG movie audience and the DS9 TV audience were, in many ways, two different beasts.

    Also consider, at this stage of the game, video sale and syndicated reruns were now a fact of life when planning a Trek TV series. Why would they take an episode to set up a story that would never be shown in the context of the DS9 rerun schedule? There would be that gap of "what happened to the Defiant" and then people who didn't see First Contact would have to seek it out. Meh.

    For die hard fans…sure it would be kind of cool to link the franchise, but on a business level, it was probably better to keep the films and TV series separate, except in the most oblique ways with cute character crossovers that don't make a difference to casual filmgoers. If Worf didn't go to DS9, that whole Defiant sequence would never have been made, losing that crossover. The movies exist outside the other series mainly because they aren't run in syndication packages. They get played anywhere, at any time. They have to exist on their own. That's why it doesn't matter the Dominion War wasn't really addressed except in passing in Insurrection. Once the movie is out of theaters and DS9 was off the air, Insurrection could have taken place anytime during that general era.

    Anyway, Lursa and B'Tor were on DS9 for an episode setting up Generations and it wasn't even a good episode. They felt out of place in a fairly obvious attempt to connect the dots. I'd much rather see the respective series left to their own devices.
     
  9. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Don't know if it's true or not but I remember reading that at one stage, the plan was to actually have the Defiant destroyed in FC. Ron Moore was supposedly so annoyed that he said that he was just going to completely ignore it.

    God, how that would have messed with our little continuity-loving heads!
     
  10. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    We'd probably get some stupid technobabble filled explanation about how when the Borg Queen was killed the timeline reset itself and the Borg attack never happened.
     
  11. M-Red

    M-Red Commander Red Shirt

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    Extending the Romulan-Vulcan storyline from "Unification" could have been fantastic. Romulan treachery with real Romulans, real TNG-show style Warbirds, high politics and significant Alpha Quadrant consequences, a new Rommie main villain, and a role for Spock. That could have been done very well in capable hands.


    Continuing from "Redemption," a good story could have been crafted with Worf, the Enterprise, and the Klingon High Council.


    A story centered around Data and Lore could have worked if it was smartly written and avoided becoming campy like B4. Maybe have Lore working with a rouge group ---Cardies or Ferengis ---and draw in Data and the Enterprise.


    And I might be lonely in this opinion, but I think TNG's last chapter should have been a Q film that concluded the story arc from Farpoint and AGT. With a good script and quality CGI, that could have been a great big screen Trek adventure and a proper TNG sendoff.
     
  12. M-Red

    M-Red Commander Red Shirt

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    And the fear of the TNG movies being too involved with the TV series proved to be a mistake.

    After all, the one truly successful film in the TNG movie series --First Contact ---positioned itself as a sequel to its most popular two-part episode, BoBW.

    The TV series was a very good and popular show. They should have utilized it as an asset instead of running from it. It wouldn't be hard to fill in the general audience with brief snippets of backstory while still delivering a good movie.


    The TOS movies constantly referenced and based story arcs from their TV series. Not only did they do that, but the original crew also evolved as characters throughout their movies. Things changed around them and in their lives and they adapted to those changes. It made that film series more realistic and more enjoyable.

    We never really got that with the TNG characters in the films. Trek's leaders simply weren't as confident in TNG on the big screen as they should have been. They tried to play it safe, when they should have used the TV success and popularity to boldly go.
     
  13. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ But the thing about FC, just as with TWOK before it, was that you didn't need to see the tv episodes which preceded them to enjoy the movies. Maybe it helped. But really, all you needed to know was that Picard had a history with the Borg or that Khan had a history with Kirk.

    No in-depth knowledge of either BOBW or Space Seed was necessary, any more than you need to know the ins and outs of the Clone Wars to enjoy A New Hope or to know all about Robert Baratheon's overthrow of King Aegon to enjoy A Game of Thrones. It's stuff which happened in the past which put these characters in the position they're in now.

    What TWOK and FC have in common is that they're exciting and emotive films which produced a strong response in Trek fans and casual cinema-goers alike. That's really what made them hits, not the coincidence of deriving from old tv episodes.

    Having said that, of course, I accept your point that being a sequel to an old tv ep need not turn off the casual audience.
     
  14. Amasov

    Amasov Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I remember when "Trials and Tribble-ations" aired in late 1996. I want to say it aired a few weeks before First Contact was released. When Sisko is explaining the events, he mentions they were on the Enterprise. One of them says, "Be specific, Captain, which Enterprise? There have been five." and the other corrects him and says, "Six." -- suggesting the then-new Enterprise-E, which none of us had seen yet.
     
  15. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^And of course, with hindsight, it could have been Jonathan Archer's NX-01 (though you are right, it was clearly written with the ENT-E in mind).
     
  16. JediKnightButler

    JediKnightButler Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That *should* have been "Nemesis" IMHO. What we got was sooooooo far from what I imagined it to be
     
  17. Plain Simple

    Plain Simple Commodore Commodore

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    The wedding scene (if you're referring to Riker-Troi) was in Nemesis, not Insurrection. INS did have a reception on board the Enterprise at the start.

    A few lines about Quark's (non-)appearance in INS can be found here.

    I don't see this as a concern. The OP's suggestion was not to change anything in the movie, but to add two scenes in DS9. One where the Defiant leaves to go battle the Borg, and another one, one or two episodes later, in which it comes back.

    The syndication concern you voiced later in your post, is more valid, I think. Although if it is just one or two scenes in DS9, not a full episode, that concern is minor.

    The biggest concern was probably that the DS9 writers didn't want to give up valuable screen time to plot points that had nothing to do with their show. And perhaps even more importantly, they probably didn't want to be forced to write out major characters and the Defiant for one or two episodes, while it was supposedly "off fighting the Borg". Still, I think it would've been cool. It would give more of the impression that the Trek shows take place in this vast fictional universe where a lot of other stuff is taking place at the same time.

    Indeed, Nemesis could've been the movie in which the Romulans finally got to shine on the big screen as villain or allies, whichever way they had wanted to take it. Instead we got... wasted potential, let's say.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  18. Agonizer

    Agonizer Ensign Red Shirt

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    It would've been a nice idea, but I don't think it would have helped in promotion of the movie. I think everyone who watched DS9 knew about First Contact.
     
  19. Gojira

    Gojira Commodore Commodore

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    I just watched First Contact, the episode, and I thought that it would have made a good jumping off spot for a movie. I would have loved to see how things changed for them a few years later. It would have been interesting to explore.
     
  20. JudgeDredd

    JudgeDredd Lieutenant Junior Grade

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    You seem to keep missing a point here: the Riker/Troi wedding was in Nemesis, not Insurrection. And the Dominion War was still going on during Insurrection, but was over before Nemesis.
     

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