Time's Orphan:

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Kobayshi Maru, Jul 30, 2014.

  1. Kobayshi Maru

    Kobayshi Maru Commodore

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    I am a bit troubled by the logic applied in this episode. O'Brien, because of a glitch in the time portal, pulls his daughter from the past, ten years too late. So she's in fact a young adult with the mind of a little child. She's obviously suffered from solitude for a decade, she's stunted and condemned to live the life of a misfit, who'll be regarded as bizarre by the rest of society. YET, O'Brien along with Keiko, decide NOT to attempt to get a her at an earlier stage, because it would "erase" ten years of her life!! Are you kidding me? O'Brien especially should have been more sensitive! He had twenty years of incarceration put in his mind and that nearly drove him to suicide! How can't he see that this is a similar situation.
    It's takes another technical glitch to put things back the way they should have been and I find it troubling. That O'Brien never realized that that is what he should have tried from the start, IE give Molly her childhood back.
     
  2. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    From a humanist perspective, teenage Molly was a person who had a right to exist. Taking her life without giving her the choice would be murder, and placing greater value on one version of Molly than another version of Molly just because the other version is better adapted to society is anti-egalitarian.
     
  3. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    It's one of my least favorite episodes because it seems contrived. It's sort of a precursor to the moral ethics argument that shows up in Voyager with "Tuvix".
     
  4. Kobayshi Maru

    Kobayshi Maru Commodore

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    I disagree, when O'Brien had twenty years of incarceration ingrained in his brain. The first thing they tried is to remove them, which would have taken away twenty years of his existence (Virtual or real makes no difference). The same logic should apply to ten years of miserable existence for Molly, at least O'Brien had a friend to talk to during this time, Molly did not.

    There's nothing egalitarian about applying two standards of treatment to two situations essentially similar.

    This situation is even more similar than that. Imagine, if they had the power to remove O'Brien from Agratha (using time travel) before he was implanted with these memories, I bet they would have done it without hesitation.

    You're still not seeing why these two cases are essentially the same?
     
  5. dub

    dub Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    oh wow...I loved this episode. Made me shed tears.
     
  6. Kobayshi Maru

    Kobayshi Maru Commodore

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    Besides, there is something absurd about the ending. Both O'Brien and Keiko seemed happy and relieved that young Molly had returned. Not one second did they seem to regret that they had essentially killed old Molly. So what happened to all these scruples that made them go through all this in the first place? Not even one sentence of regrets about the Molly they tried to preserve.

    No humanism there.
     
  7. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They're similar, only O'Brien would have been given the choice whether to have the memories erased. Molly would not have been capable of understanding that choice, at least not for a while. At the end she made the choice to erase those years, and that was her decision.

    Let me turn your comparison back at you, suppose they found a way to remove the memories of O'Brien's simulated incarceration, and he refused. Should they force the procedure on him?
     
  8. Kobayshi Maru

    Kobayshi Maru Commodore

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    The point is that he didn't refuse, he even took medication (as was said) to dim the memory. I guess if he could have dimmed it to nothing, he would have, without hesitation at that. If Molly could have understood in the state that she was, the life she was missing, likely forever, because of her terrible ordeal, no doubt she would have wanted out of it.

    If a rape victim was offered the possibility to be in the exact state she was before the rape, do you think, she would say NO? I've met someone victim of terrorism, she was near an explosion in the subway. Fortunately, she was far enough to not suffer permanent physical injuries, but she suffered PTSD for years after that. I have no doubt that if she could just have the memory of the traumatic event erased from her mind, she would accept without hesitations.
     
  9. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You're dodging the question. Yes, O'Brien if given the choice would have agreed to go back to his state of mind previous to the experience. But it doesn't change the fact that it would have been his informed choice.

    It's not the place of the O'Briens to make the choice on behalf of Molly just because she's not currently capable of making an informed choice.

    It's the same thing with terrorism victims. Yes, many would choose to reverse the timeline where they were terrorized, but it's still nobody's choice but theirs.
     
  10. Kobayshi Maru

    Kobayshi Maru Commodore

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    But if you do nothing and let her in the state she's in, YOU DO MAKE a choice, you choose that life for her. Doing nothing is not neutral. It's no more neutral than let a victim of accident die instead of calling an ambulance.

    The point is that Molly doesn't know enough to make an informed decision and that therefore someone else has to make the decision for her and if that someone bases his judgment on precedents, e.g. rape victims, terrorist victims... He'll decide to remove these years and let her live the good life she was destined to before the accident.
     
  11. DS9forever

    DS9forever Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Even though "Tuvix" was made years earlier?
     
  12. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I didn't check the airdates. But it still seems like a recycle, regardless which show did it first.
     
  13. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's more like murdering somebody you don't like in order to give a heart transplant to somebody you like better.

    She was an intelligent person, after a couple months of education she could understand the choice. Hell, she DID understand what she was doing when she sent her previous self back.

    Making the decision for her is playing God. Choosing one life's right to exist over another because you place greater value on that life.
     
  14. Kobayshi Maru

    Kobayshi Maru Commodore

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    Last edited: Jul 31, 2014