Time Police/STXI solved!

[F. King Daniel]

A common complaint with Star Trek from longtime fans is “where are the time police?” - those people from Voyager and Enterprise whose job it was to make sure nobody messed up the timeline.

Here’s my answer:

Crewman Daniels from the 31st century time police (seen in Enterprise) didn’t stop Nero’s mission because Daniels and his time police are from the post-Star Trek XI timeline! Go back and check – he never made a single mention of specific TNG, DS9 or VOY characters or events. From Daniels’ perspective, Nero’s incursion into the past is part of the normal chain of events.

The reason that Captain Braxton’s 29th century time police (seen in Voyager) didn’t get involved is because they were erased from the timeline by Nero’s actions. Ever wonder why the 29th century guys never got involved in the 22nd century time war but the 31st century guys did? It’s because from Daniels’ 31st century perspective (and that of the entire temporal cold war) they never existed. They’re from the same timeline as Voyager (and TNG and DS9), which ceased to exist (at least in its current form) when Nero blew up the Kelvin and later imploded Vulcan.

Problems with this theory: The 29th century Timeship Relativity is said to be “protected from changed in the timeline” presumably by similar shielding to what Voyager came up with in VOY: ‘Year of Hell’. Maybe their shields were down at the time? Or they weren’t powerful enough to survive such a big change? Maybe the ship survived but the crew didn’t, which is why 31st century Daniels’ wears that stupid looking Time Suit.

Also I’m assuming one timeline, contrary to Bob Orci’s many worlds theory. The film itself leaves it up to the viewer (alternate as well as or alternate instead of?)

 

[Jeri]

Uhura says they are in an alternate reality and Spock agrees, saying "Precisely." It is not left up to the viewer.

This thread should probably be merged with the other one...

 

[F. King Daniel]

Uhura says they are in an alternate reality and Spock agrees, saying "Precisely." It is not left up to the viewer.

This thread should probably be merged with the other one...

yes but alternate as well as or alternate instead of? It can be taken both ways.

 

[Jeri]

No, it can't. The word "alternate" presumes another exists.

 

[Lumen]

Spock and Uhura don't really know anything. This debate is pretty inconsequential, but that they guessed it was an alternate reality doesn't conclusively tell us what it was an "alternative" to. Obviously, Enterpise still a part of this reality -- so all of the events of Enterprise are, as well, even the time travel elements. This theory seems pretty good to me -- there's nothing in Enterprise to suggest which Captain Kirk it is that Daniels came after.

 

[Jeri]

The debate is not inconsequential; they're putting it on live-action screen as canon.

And the alternative is clearly the ones we have seen on live-action screen as canon. They wouldn't be referring to anything else.

 

[F. King Daniel]

This has gone totally off topic :-/
Besides, what does it matter anyway? I don't get people getting wound up at the mere possiblilty a fictional universe has been reset. Your DVD's won't melt. Even if TNG/DS9 etc are gone, the fact that Spock Prime remebers them shows that somewhere they do/did exist. Even if they don't. If you follow.

 

[Hambone]

The "time police" or "temporal enforcers" or whatever they were called was a bad idea from the get-go. It was a concept that let the genie out of the bottle. It would have made a good science fiction story but it's not a good Star Trek story; Trek has always depended on time-travel stories.

If the time cops were really able to do their job, everything after "The Naked Time" would be an alternate timeline. They would have stopped the Enterprise from travelling back three days, thereby changing everything that came after.

It's like the TNG episode where they decided that the transporter retained a record of everyone who had been beamed out, and they could "restore" that person to their previous condition. Well, that certainly would come in handy, wouldn't it?

Likewise, any time Nero, or Rasmussen, or Future Guy or any other time-travelling trouble maker showed up, all our heroes would have to do is fold their arms and say "Not our problem! The Temporal Police will be here any second to fix everything."

 

[Jbarney]

The "time police" or "temporal enforcers" or whatever they were called was a bad idea from the get-go. It was a concept that let the genie out of the bottle. It would have made a good science fiction story but it's not a good Star Trek story; Trek has always depended on time-travel stories.

If the time cops were really able to do their job, everything after "The Naked Time" would be an alternate timeline. They would have stopped the Enterprise from travelling back three days, thereby changing everything that came after.

It's like the TNG episode where they decided that the transporter retained a record of everyone who had been beamed out, and they could "restore" that person to their previous condition. Well, that certainly would come in handy, wouldn't it?

Likewise, any time Nero, or Rasmussen, or Future Guy or any other time-travelling trouble maker showed up, all our heroes would have to do is fold their arms and say "Not our problem! The Temporal Police will be here any second to fix everything."

I agree, great idea....but the time police are just too grand scheme to have around in the star trek universe.

 

[Deks]

No, it can't. The word "alternate" presumes another exists.

Not really. It depends on the interpretation.
In this particular situation it can be argued that Uhura said 'alternate' merely to confirm the fact that their futures are now different.
Therefore, it can easily still mean that the Trek prime universe (at least as far as canon is concerned) is no more.

What was also established by Spock is that whatever their future lives may have been, history was altered beginning with the destruction of Kelvin and culminating in the sequence of events they were experiencing then with Nero in the past.

Both Nero and old Spock can easily exist in the past even with the prime universe being completely changed ... passing through the singularity could have protected them both from changes in the time stream just as the Enterprise-E was protected from the changes in FC ... otherwise, the ship would have been obliterated from existence anyway (if the protection was only a temporary one from within the anomaly) since the Sphere was already attacking Montana before the Sovvie exited the time stream and inflicted casualties.

So to sum it up, there is a good possibility that the new sequence of events is actually happening within the prime universe we all knew.
In our reality, the previous Trek made shows and movies won't simply disappear ... but as far as on-screen is concerned, the prime-timeline from this movie's era and forth has been changed drastically.

 

[digger]

The debate is not inconsequential; they're putting it on live-action screen as canon.

And the alternative is clearly the ones we have seen on live-action screen as canon. They wouldn't be referring to anything else.

Spock and Uhura mentioning it on screen only makes cannon the fact that THEY think this is the reason. It doesn't mean that's what ACTUALLY happened.

 

[Jeri]

Deks, the meaning is plain. No possibility it's in the prime universe.

adj. (-nt)
Serving or used in place of another; substitute: an alternate plan.

digger, the reason Orci and Kurtzman put it on the screen was to indicate their intention. They didn't have the cast discuss it pointlessly. Orci said so.

 

[digger]

digger, the reason Orci and Kurtzman put it on the screen was to indicate their intention. They didn't have the cast discuss it pointlessly. Orci said so.

I agree that was probably the writers' intentions; otherwise, you are correct that it would be pointless to be on-screen. However, in my belief, cannon is determined by what is on screen, not what the writers' intentions were.

If intentions defined cannon, then we have to question everything we believe about either Trek universe until we get clarification from every writer.

Also, keep in mind that, with the example of the on-screen discussion regarding an alternate reality, no where is it said that these characters have proof this is an alternite reality, only that they believe it is. If we have to accept the characters theory as fact only because they mentioned it on screen, then any theory ever mentioned in Star Trek would have to be accepted as fact.

An example that comes quickly to mind is in the Voyager episode, "The Voyager Conspiracy." In it, Seven states many conspiracies she believes are going on. Obviosuly, as viewers, we know those conspiracies are not correct, but Seven, the character, believes they are. But, according to your logic, since she states it aloud on screen, it should be cannon that it's correct.

 

[SalvorHardin]

It's that time again

 

[Jeri]

digger, there's no discrepancy between the movie and Seven. The intention of the episode was to describe conspiracy theories, which they did. Uhura and Spock plainly said what they were meant to, too.

 

[Qonos]

No, it can't. The word "alternate" presumes another exists.

Not really. It depends on the interpretation.
In this particular situation it can be argued that Uhura said 'alternate' merely to confirm the fact that their futures are now different.
Therefore, it can easily still mean that the Trek prime universe (at least as far as canon is concerned) is no more.

What was also established by Spock is that whatever their future lives may have been, history was altered beginning with the destruction of Kelvin and culminating in the sequence of events they were experiencing then with Nero in the past.

Both Nero and old Spock can easily exist in the past even with the prime universe being completely changed ... passing through the singularity could have protected them both from changes in the time stream just as the Enterprise-E was protected from the changes in FC ... otherwise, the ship would have been obliterated from existence anyway (if the protection was only a temporary one from within the anomaly) since the Sphere was already attacking Montana before the Sovvie exited the time stream and inflicted casualties.

So to sum it up, there is a good possibility that the new sequence of events is actually happening within the prime universe we all knew.
In our reality, the previous Trek made shows and movies won't simply disappear ... but as far as on-screen is concerned, the prime-timeline from this movie's era and forth has been changed drastically.

You can not have an alternate with out a primary.

WORDS HAVE MEANINGS.

• go back and forth; swing back and forth between two states or conditions
• exchange people temporarily to fulfill certain jobs and functions
• alternate(a): every second one of a series; "the cleaning lady comes on alternate Wednesdays"; "jam every other day"- the White Queen
• understudy: be an understudy or alternate for a role
• serving or used in place of another; "an alternative plan"
• interchange: reverse (a direction, attitude, or course of action)
• alternate(a): occurring by turns; first one and then the other; "alternating feelings of love and hate"
• do something in turns; "We take turns on the night shift"
• surrogate: someone who takes the place of another person
• of leaves and branches etc; first on one side and then on the other in two ranks along an axis; not paired; "stems with alternate leaves"
  wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

All of these assume that there is something to be alternated with, never replaced on a permenant basis.

 

[digger]

digger, there's no discrepancy between the movie and Seven. The intention of the episode was to describe conspiracy theories, which they did. Uhura and Spock plainly said what they were meant to, too.

I would first like to state that I do agree with you that this is, in fact, an alternate relaity. The part that I disagree with is that I don't think, by what is on-screen, all viewers MUST think it's an alternate reality.

Granted, it's the conclusion I've drawn from the information at hand, but, in my opinion, no where on screen is there any definitive proof. The only mention of "alternate reality" on screen is during a discussion about a possible explanation of what is going on. This isn't a fact that the characters extrapolate from proof and test. It is only a theory, mentioned during a single conversation, as a possible reason.

As a result, it's not absolute. I would agree that there's every reason to believe that after the "Nero incident," perhaps the Federation's greatest minds got together and did prove it. But it's equally as likely that they got together and disproved it. It's left up to the viewer's interpretation.

 

[Jack Bauer]

I think the time police only care about their own timeline. If someone screws with the past and creates an alternate timeline the time police don't give a rat's ass. They only care if someone travels to the past and mucks up the "real" (IOW, their own) timeline.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I think the time police only care about their own timeline. If someone screws with the past and creates an alternate timeline the time police don't give a rat's ass. They only care if someone travels to the past and mucks up the "real" (IOW, their own) timeline.

Hmmm...interesting. So if their past was changed, they wouldn't know, because they couldn't know. Is that what you're saying? Or, are you saying they are just one of many timelines, and they are protecting it, which would mean that all time lines have their own time cops..

Here is the question though...will be interesting to see what you think...does Q have a counterpart in Yesterday's Enterprise? Meaning, does Q exist outside it all? Or are there mulitple Qs as well, who guard the time line as well...

Rob

 

[think]

A common complaint with Star Trek from longtime fans is “where are the time police?” - those people from Voyager and Enterprise whose job it was to make sure nobody messed up the timeline.

Here’s my answer:

Crewman Daniels from the 31st century time police (seen in Enterprise) didn’t stop Nero’s mission because Daniels and his time police are from the post-Star Trek XI timeline! Go back and check – he never made a single mention of specific TNG, DS9 or VOY characters or events. From Daniels’ perspective, Nero’s incursion into the past is part of the normal chain of events.

The reason that Captain Braxton’s 29th century time police (seen in Voyager) didn’t get involved is because they were erased from the timeline by Nero’s actions. Ever wonder why the 29th century guys never got involved in the 22nd century time war but the 31st century guys did? It’s because from Daniels’ 31st century perspective (and that of the entire temporal cold war) they never existed. They’re from the same timeline as Voyager (and TNG and DS9), which ceased to exist (at least in its current form) when Nero blew up the Kelvin and later imploded Vulcan.

Problems with this theory: The 29th century Timeship Relativity is said to be “protected from changed in the timeline” presumably by similar shielding to what Voyager came up with in VOY: ‘Year of Hell’. Maybe their shields were down at the time? Or they weren’t powerful enough to survive such a big change? Maybe the ship survived but the crew didn’t, which is why 31st century Daniels’ wears that stupid looking Time Suit.

Also I’m assuming one timeline, contrary to Bob Orci’s many worlds theory. The film itself leaves it up to the viewer (alternate as well as or alternate instead of?)

dude: :during the mind meld there is a scene of Tovok where he was helping Spock with the red matter as a Vulcan scientist but I am probably wrong...