Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by WesleysDisciple, Mar 9, 2013.

  1. WesleysDisciple

    WesleysDisciple Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Curious anything thats not been said.

    We all know that The "Captain" Is a wacko.

    Any other observations.

    I think that Nog got tossed the idiot ball, and holds it till the last 5 minutes, when shoves it at the dieing girl who holds it till the end of the episode.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
  2. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Nog was not tossed the "idiot ball"; he'd always wanted to join Red Squad. He finally got to see the Red Squad cult up close, though, and finally learned a lesson - that they were overconfident and reckless. Chief Collins was involved with the cult longer than Nog, though, so would naturally be more reluctant to change her view of it. She likely spent a good deal of time in therapy to remove her brainwashing, or at least, exchange it for a different brainwashing.
     
  3. -Brett-

    -Brett- Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Close to 15 years after the episode aired? Probably not.
     
  4. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Jake bothers me in the episode. He drops his dad's name thinking that gives him the final word in Starfleet tactical combat, whilst also having an opportunity to observe and report back on a crew who have lasted for months alone behind enemy lines, he goes in a huff and starts trying to undermine the Captain.

    Nog is guilty of heroworship of the Red Squad, but he comes to his senses (admittedly a little late), but he is barely an ensign with his head still swimming with what he was taught at the Academy, so he would follow the chain of command.

    As for the cadets themselves, I quite like them. Watters clearly has potential, though in need of a lot more experience, he does seem like an alright kinda guy. Farris is Shelby's mini-me, but does show a softer side in dealing with Watters. Shepard doesn't have much development but definately comes across as the cocky one on the crew. As for Dorian Collins, I really like her, its a shame they never had her return (possibly as a small recurring role on DS9 in S7, maybe a romantic angle for Nog). We did see Vulcans and Trill in the crew, shame there were no aliens with speaking parts though.
     
  5. DS9forever

    DS9forever Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Its just slightly more plausible than Star Trek 2009. I don't really understand why Nog immediately defers to the cadets, given that he is an ensign by this stage in the series. The episode had neat special effects though.
     
  6. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Watters was technically a Captain, given the battlefield commission by his predecessor. Though he may wear a cadets uniform the rank would hold.

    In the beginning, Nog does appear a little uncertain about the structure, but after being (essentially) bribed he takes his place.
     
  7. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    IIRC, Nog's commission was no more "real" than those cadets were. He was given a field promotion, just like they were. Indeed, it could be argued that the cadets - since they had completed some Academy training and Nog hadn't yet - were more entitled to command than he was.

    Or, conversely, Nog could have just thought that he didn't dare pull rank on them because he was outnumbered. There were dozens of cadets, but only one of him. If he doesn't do what they say, they'll throw him in the brig regardless of how legit his rank was.

    As for the episode in general: Agreed that Red Squad were arrogant and reckless and full of themselves, but I'm sure the Klingons would have loved it - the Valiant crew died in battle against a superior enemy. That's the way all Klingons want to go. They probably sang songs about that crew.
     
  8. Photon

    Photon Commodore Commodore

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    Sumbutee els gut toszed the edeeuht ball, spuhlling-lee chllenged
     
  9. WesleysDisciple

    WesleysDisciple Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    HEre what really vexed me on the Crew.

    they COMPLETED the assigned mission... they could have gone home, and been safe and been thanked for bringing the intel, instead they decided, to go for Glory and power...

    Even the VULCANS seemed smug.
     
  10. LobsterAfternoon

    LobsterAfternoon Commander Red Shirt

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    Wait, Nog has a battlefield commission? I thought he just had an abbreviated time at the Academy due to the demands of the war.
     
  11. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    I'm certain that Nog's commission was issued formally from the Command and/or the Academy. It was a sign of how bad things were going!
     
  12. Marcus Porcius Cato

    Marcus Porcius Cato Commander Red Shirt

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    I've often felt that when watched in serial with other TNG and DS9 academy episodes, which really culminates with this one, we see the less attractive side of the Starfleet. The arrogance and the fanaticism which would be seasoned out in assignments in Starships,etc are still evident in Valiant crew. Too bad they were cut off from the leavening influence of officers and developed their sense of elitism.

    These guys were spoiled goods even if they came back in one piece.
     
  13. Sadara

    Sadara Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Watters was horribly misguided, fool of himself, and a tyrant. Seriously, homesickness isn't allowed? Jake was the only sane one of the bunch. I was surprised and disappointed that he didn't try to get a message out to his dad or Starfleet letting them know these numbskulls were still alive and doing their own thing.
     
  14. CrazyMatt

    CrazyMatt Captain Captain

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    Excellent episode, well written (of course) by Ron Moore, and a shockingly and appropriately disturbing ending... kids way over their heads eventually losing them. My only quibble is how hokey is it that only one escape pod survives and it just happens to have Jake and Nog in it? Still, one of my favs of the series.
     
  15. CrazyMatt

    CrazyMatt Captain Captain

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    Also, great finally seeing another Defiant class starship in action.
     
  16. WesleysDisciple

    WesleysDisciple Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Heard on Memory alpha that an earlier draft, had Kira along for the ride, instead of nog, but Their was no way the authors could see Kira NOT laughing off, the "Field commisions" and taking command, or winding up stunned then thrown in the brig.

    A lot think that "Captain Watter's" Was just not eager to return to being a Cadet.

    Note in the Final bit on DS9

    It shows Nog Having been promoted to lieutnenant junior grade.

    NOT "Your Field commision is hereby terminated, for what its worth you fufilled your dutys exemplary, its time to report back to the academy to finish your classes.

    Maybe he can cover 2 or 3 advanced senior classes with the bajoran mlitary academy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  17. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Or at least that's what he himself claims. Apparently, nobody else really heard the dying words of the original skipper...

    That was a nice touch of ambiguity there. Perhaps Watters did get the skipper's blessing for at least part of what he was doing. Perhaps the Captain's dying words were more on the lines of "Take your knee off my windpipe, you murderous bastaaaaa..." and Watters would have been his last choice for command. Perhaps there were no words. The episode works regardless of the facts.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. Sadara

    Sadara Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    That bothered me too. Watters should have done the sensible thing and ordered the ship home. Perhaps if Red Squad hadn't had so much sunshine and praise blown up their ass for so long, they would have realized they didn't have the experience and possibly firepower necessary to finish off a Dominion warship.

    That tragedy is partly Starfleet's fault for conditioning them to be snobbish, egotistical, self important fuckknuckles.

    As for the Vulcans, you'd have thought logic would have told them their captain was a couple sandwiches short of a picnic, but that didn't happen either.
     
  19. CrazyMatt

    CrazyMatt Captain Captain

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    True, can you imagine the conversation in the admiral's office on starbase (whatever) upon the Valiant's return from Dominion-held space...

    Admiral: Considering your circumstances, you did quite well, Watters.

    Watters: Thank you sir. After our repairs I'll be able to take the Valiant out for our next mission. Can you spare me some more crew members? We're really shorthanded right now.

    Admiral: What? What are you talking about cadet?

    Watters: Sir, I'm Captain Watters. Captain Ramirez gave me a battlefield commission.

    Admiral: Captain my ass... get those pips off this minute, cadet. And don't you go near the Valiant unless it's to collect your belongings. Expect to be on the next shuttle back to Earth and the Academy!
     
  20. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

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    I haven't seen this episode in a long time as I get angry after I saw it before since I think it's one of the worst episodes of the series. However, something that pisses me off even more about this one are the events in two of my favorite episodes, Homefront/Paradise Lost, and I have a simple question that brings these three episodes together.

    What the hell was red squad still doing in service. I mean during the changling at home threat (Which never got resolved by the way) and the attempted Coup, Red Squad was an accessory to those events. I forgot if murder was involved, but I know treason was. So considering that yes at the time of the 4th season everyone knew that War was inevitable, why risk even having this "cadet group" still in service. Why wasn't it disbanded. Hell, if we bring in First Duty into this discussion, it seems like Starfleet Academy can't keep it's elite cadets in check and they have some serious internal issues. Isn't that a risk in itself to the war effort? I'm not saying disbanding Starfleet Academy, but why was Red Squad allowed to continue?

    Anyway, Valiant and Profit and Lace are the two worst back to back group of episodes in the series, but I probably should watch them again (And I'm doing a rewatch where I'm not skipping episodes) to see if they still hold up to being bad.