Thoughts on Season 2

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by dub, Sep 4, 2013.

  1. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    it would depend on how he was portrayed, but I can see how it could be offensive. If people are offended at him being from a fictional tribe, I bet they would definately be offended at him being from a real one...

    lets say when he pulls out his medicine bundle, if everything in there isn't spot on 100% completely dead on accurate, if he was from a real tribe people would freak out about it
     
  2. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    "Cold Fire" - I thought it was unfortunate that Suspiria's name was the same as a rather successful 1977 Italian horror film. It kept making me think there was supposed to be some significance to it that I was missing, as I'd not seen the film itself. When I first saw "Cold Fire", I remembered the film being advertised.
     
  3. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Let's say he doesn't have a "medicine bundle" to pull out. Since it's not an Indian thing, but a New Age white people who wanna be Indians thing.

    This is the problem. Taylor went so overboard trying not to be offensive, that she created a stereotype that is, by nature of being a stereotype, offensive.

    The Ecological Peaceful Indian. There's NO history for that. We were just as hard on the environment as the folks who followed us. And Peaceful? Really? The oldest continuous democracy on the planet is the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, which was founded so that the 6 nations didn't continue slaughtering each other. (For which, being from one of them, I am grateful... ;) ).

    Here's the thing: TPTB were relying on the actor cast to give them some sorta direction. But they cast an actor who doesn't know a thing about his own heritage (not uncommon among Mexican Americans born in the States). So, he suggested Mayan, thinking they'd do some research.

    And Jeri Taylor did. She went to Maya.net & copied the first page into the series bible (which appears word-for-word plagiarized in "Pathways"). That's a creation myth. That's it for the research.

    What is particularly sad (yet typical of the blinders the majority culture has on when they look at us) is that TPTB had informants all around them. There's a huge expatriate Mayan population in Los Angeles. They are nannies, and cleaning ladies, and gardeners, as well as doctors, lawyers, teachers & scientists. When I was writing fanfic, I'd get stories from my facialist once a month, and that gave me some background into the culture as it stands in the 21st century--and a starting point for how that culture would evolve into the 24th.

    That there was nothing but what she made up in her head showed me that, despite the fact that they worked on a franchise that was supposed to be enlightened, TPTB were no different than most very well-off Americans: they don't talk to the hired help. ;)
     
  4. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You know, "Tattoo" is one of those episodes I just never got around to seeing (though I've got it on VHS somewhere). I think I can live with that.
     
  5. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The sad thing is, the B-story is the best Kes story ever. She's downright devious, in a fun way, and the interaction between her and the Doctor is terrific.

    It's too bad they had to include it in what's easily my least-favorite episode of Star Trek ever.
     
  6. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    that's true, the only time I think I ever actually kind of liked her and it's in a crap episode
     
  7. Orac

    Orac Admiral Admiral

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    I think "reset" episodes are cool. :bolian:
     
  8. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And all of a sudden, the whole thread turns into another "bash Lynx" thread! That's constructive!

    I have told you over and over and over and over and over and over and over again during the last years that I didn't like the "Sky Spirits" concept at all. I have told you many times that I do also find that concept insulting to the American Indians and that I totally agree with your statements about it.

    I have also written many times that I would have liked Chakotay's background story presented in another way.

    But for some strange reason, you seem to forget that. I can't understand why. You do seem to have a good memory when it comes to many other Voyager aspects.

    The reason that I don't totally axe "Threshold" is because I do find parts of Chakotay's background story interesting, his relation to his father and such. I also happen to like the subplot with The Doctor's simulated flu and how Kes prolonged that. I think this subplot actually saves the episode from a total disaster.
     
  9. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oh come on Lynx, one inappropriate comment towards you doesn't constitute a "bash Lynx" thread. I actually like that Kes has such an ardent supporter and fan in you. :)
     
  10. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Thanks! :)

    As for "bash Lynx" threads, well to quote Tom Paris: "It's a long story and I'm tired of telling it".

    So I won't. I'll focus on more constructive things. As for Season 2, I really like it.
     
  11. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Fair enough, sir. I can't say I've noticed a "bash Lynx" trend, but then again such a trend wouldn't be aimed at me. I'm often critical of Voyager and I personally think season 2 is among the worst of it, but hey.. if you like it, more power to you. :)

    Though most of my criticism towards Voyager is just... me being disappointed it wasn't so much better. It really had the potential to be the best of Trek.
     
  12. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^^
    You'll need a time machine to find such bashing threads and they weren't so common here either.

    This forum is peaceful and constructive.

    As for our different opinions of Season 2, well it's different tastes I guess.
     
  13. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I liked "Twisted" simply for its weirdassness, which puts me in a minority.
     
  14. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well that wouldn't be my first priority if I did have a time machine. :p

    And it definitely wouldn't be the first case of my having differing opinions on Voyager. Ask teacake, Karabear or Brit on that. ;)

    It happens. Just out of curiosity.... what did you think of Fury? To me that episode just ruined Kes.
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm pretty sure Lynx would agree with you on that one. Actually, I'm pretty sure most of the civilized world would agree with you on that one. :p

    Yeah, I'll admit there are certain frequent posters to this forum who I've become reluctant to engage with because if we disagree then it immediately seems to jump to broken record territory.

    To be clear I'm not saying any party is wrong versus right. Just different opinions polarized in opposite directions. It gets tiresome.

    It gets far worse than tiresome when people start taking (or making) it personal, though.

    Examples - "Tuvix" and "Before Dishonor" - where I sometimes feel everything that can be said has been. Repeatedly.
     
  16. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I hate "Fury"!

    It's the most disgusting and insulting episode ever made for TV.

    Not only did it totally ruin Kes, it was also a deliberate insult to the fans of the character.

    There was a letter campaign going at that time, not created by me but another fan of Kes. The aim for the campaign was to send mails and letters to the Paramount in order to have Kes reinstated as a main character in the series again. The campaign resulted in thousands of letters and mails sent to those in charge of Star Trek Voyager.

    The answer we got was "Fury". A finger up in our faces. "Eat this, you ungrateful idiots!"

    I must admit that I still dislike Brannon Braga and Bryan Fuller for "Fury". Every time I see them involved in some project I cringe.

    "Fury" had no logic, it was full of flaws, a badly written episode with the one and only purpose to humiliate and destroy a Star Trek character.

    Personally I refuse to see the pathetic wreck in this episode as Kes. I see it as Suspiria in disguise or some being from a mirror universe or some evil spirit and who knows what.

    And no, I will never watch that episode again. Once was enough and after watching it (fortunately I was warned by some nice friends in the US who had watched the episode some months before I got the opportunity) I was very close to throw out the TV from my window. Only sheer greed (TV:s are a bit expensive) and some concern about the people on the street below prevented me from doing it.

    If I ever buy season 6 on DVD, I'll make sure that this episode is unwatchable on the disc.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    While I don't disagree with your assessment of the quality of the episode, you damage your own credibility with multiple statements that seem driven more by emotion than fact. Were they in any document I thought was supposed to be considered reliable I'd feel obligated to demand citations.

    As is, I'll simply assume you're letting your personal opinions interfere with your objectivity and accuracy, which leads to a somewhat amusing but ultimately disappointing read.

    Though the idea that 45 minutes of any level of television...and on only one channel...would be enough to drive someone to throw their television out the window is pretty damn hilarious.
     
  18. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I thought people only threw their television sets out the window when watching politicians.

    Each of the Berman-year shows seemed to have characters the writers could never get a handle on, so they would often display wide variations in personality. VOY just had more examples than any other show I think. There's split personality Janeway, let's go home no let's kick alien ass; Neelix trying to figure out what he can do that's useful this week so they don't kick him off the ship; and then sweet little Kes, who's so sweet we need to turn her into leather-suited ruler of a planet.
     
  19. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, even if we put my personal emotions aside and are trying to be objective, I would still find "Fury" a crap episode. I would have dislike it even if it had been another character who had been ruined in the same way as Kes was in that episode.

    Even in my worst anti-Seven days, I wouldn't have dreamed about ruining that character in the same way.

    The episode is simply bad. The whole scenario is unrealistic and totally wrong.

    1. Why had Kes aged? If she had become some sort of Ocampa higher being in an afterlife which is the highest level for the Ocampa soul or so, she wouldn't have aged. She would have returned the same person as she left.

    2. Why would she return to her previous level? It's said that becoming such an energy being is the highest level for the Ocampa. Why would she, as the only Ocampa dislike that paradise-like environment so much that she had to return to a previous level?

    3. Why did she blame Janeway? It was her own decision to join the Voyager crew and during her whole time on Voyager she was happy and content with her life there.

    4. Why would she want to destroy the ship and kill her friends there, the friends she did care so much about. The real Kes would never do such a thing. She would rather sacrifice herself than to harm any of her crewmates.

    In the end of this pathetic excuse for an episode, she turns into a pathetic old wreck who wants to return to the place she left without remorse a long time ago. Now, where is the Kes who wanted to learn and explore, who wanted to go th Earth with the rest of the crew and maybe study at the Starfleet Academy? In other words, the real Kes!

    This episode makes no sense. It has nothing to do with the ongoing Voyager timeline. It has no importance or influence at all to coming events of the series. It seems to be made with the one and only purpose to destroy a character in the worst possible way.

    It's an episode which could easily be erased and no one would miss it.

    And don't forget that Elvis did shoot at TV.s when he didn't like the program. ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  20. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    I certainly share your frustration with this episode, but characters evolving to a higher plane is almost no better than death: writers paint themselves into a corner. I'm not surprised, for instance, that Wesley Crusher's dialogue was expunged from Nemesis as it would raise so many questions about why he would return to run the menial nightshift on the Titan in Nemesis. And if Sisko's return from the Celestial Temple had been depicted in the series, I would find it laughable if he took up again as a Starfleet officer. (Although it might make sense if he went back to cleaning clams.) Addressing Kes' return needed to be, in some sense, spectacular.

    Now, I don't like to correct people's writing, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I laughed at the idea of Kes returning to her "pervier" self.