Thor Damar's Heroes of the Cardassian Union.

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Thor Damar, Oct 27, 2009.

  1. Thor Damar

    Thor Damar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Greetings and salutations to you all. Inspired by some of the more...interesting discussions regarding Dukat and the Bajorian Occupation, I have decided to hail the true heroes of the Union.

    These men and women have shown us that the Cardassian people are more than thugs, murderers or so called 'gentle tyrants' instead we have seen noble dissents and courageous soldiers of the Union. So here they are my friends let us celebrate the glory of these true sons and daughters of Prime.


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    1) Aamin Marritza: I have a real soft spot for this guy. A brave man who thinks that he is a coward, this nobel clerk was willing to sacrifice himself in order to force his people to accept their responsibility for the Occupation. Aamin Marritza had a magnificent sense of duty to the truth and was willing to forgo his career in order to achieve this.
    A man willing to die for reconciliation and justice for the peoples of Cardassia and Bajor is a true hero.
    He was also the first Cardassian that I ever really saw and Harris Yulin's excellent acting convinced me that this DS9 thing was worth a go.

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    2) Corat Damar: The leader of the Cardassian revolution and a true patriot this oft underestimated officer almost singlehandedly changed our perception of the Cardassians and gained an heroic and worthy death.
    I raise a glass of Kanar to this great man.

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    3) Tekeny Ghemor: The Father of the Cardassian People a stanch defender of freedom and a voice for the disprocessed, this noble Legate represents all that is great about Cardassia. After all a man who is willing to help a unknown alien simply because it is the right thing to do is a inspiration to us all.
    Legate Ghemor was the finest leader that Cardassia never had:(.

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    4) Natima Lang: A journalist in the best traditions of her profession who refused to compromise with a dictatorship and who used her skills to promote an alternative vision for Cardassia. Her truly heroic efforts in the post war reconstruction of Cardassia are noteworthy.

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    5)Akllen Macet: A honest servant of Cardassia this strong and worthy Gul has had to bear many indignities with style and grace, from boneheaded subordinates, sanctimonious humans and Kosst damned headgear! (plus there's the simple fact that the poor sod looks too much like his infamous cousin)Yet through it all he remains a calm and professional solider.
    Cardassia salutes you Gul!

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    6)Glinn Daro: A thoughtful young officer who tried to reach out to a former enemy, this First Officer was one of the few Central Command members who displayed any ability to consider exactly what duty and hounor really means.

    A couple of more controversial choices now,

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    7) Elim Garak: Our not so plan and simple tailor, a former spy for a certain Order and a man for whom the ends really do justify the means. He has committed murder and engaged in what one could call treason but his loyalty to the people of Cardassia has never been in doubt. Plus he aided the Cardassian Liberation Front in freeing Cardassia from the Dominion.

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    8) Dukat the rebel: Although Skrain Dukat is not in any way a true hero, he did display a measure of courage and daring when he took on the whole Klingon Empire in one lone BoP. He provided an example to the near defeated Cardassian People and almost became a legand but alas he threw it away...

    [​IMG]
    9) The Cardassian Liberation Front: They fought for Cardassia's freedom with courage and strength until their unfortunate betrayal by lesser men.

    10) Gul Dijmas: a treklit Cardassian who liked his chess and actually had a keen mind unclouded by the over the top thuggery of early DS9 Cardassians. He also cared for his crew and stood up to Gul Dukat when required.
    (Gul Dijmas was a character in an early DS9 novel called Proud Helios who only appeared for a few paragraphs but left an favorable impression on this Cardassian fan)


    I'll be adding more in this thread later and also welcome anyone else's contributions and thoughts.


    Next Week I will be (mostly) exploring the warriors of the Empire!
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
  2. AdmiralGarak

    AdmiralGarak Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Forgetting somebody? Garak certainly deserves to be on the list if Damar does. Damar never would have had the opportunity to rebel against the Dominion if not for Garak's efforts in aiding the allies.
     
  3. Bluesteel

    Bluesteel Commander Red Shirt

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    Really? I thought it was the other way around. Damars rebellion gave the Fed/Rom/Klin alliance a brief respite which was benifical to them. Oh and the fact that if it wasn't for Damar the whole Alliance would have been destroyed on the border.
     
  4. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I have another one, though I had to reach back to TNG for this...

    Joret Dal

    For recognizing the difference between noble and patriotic service, and self-service, and for seeing what that was doing to his people and then taking the enormous risk to convey the information to the Federation that would prevent a needless war between them and Cardassia--he most definitely makes the list. Although Sito Jaxa died helping him return to Cardassian space, I think there is a chance that (offscreen) she stated that she would rather die than be a prisoner of Cardassia if the situation got so bad that no other choices remained.

    Overall, Dal is not a traitor, but a greater patriot than people like Dukat could ever imagine...

    http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Joret_Dal
     
  5. Thor Damar

    Thor Damar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    just for your information, I'm going to be updating the OP so there will be more cardassians of note (including Mr Garak) although I will admit that Joret Dal did not occur to me.
     
  6. Bones2

    Bones2 Commodore Commodore

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    Not more anti-Dukatery...
     
  7. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There are other threads for you if you don't like it.
     
  8. Thor Damar

    Thor Damar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    not quite, as the not so good Gul is at no.8 on my list;)

    My aim in this list is to examine what is good and noble about the Cardassians and highlight those who represent a better version of the Union. Basically it's part of my on going drive to find out why we are Cardassian fans (although other people can bring something different to this thread:))
     
  9. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    The Cardassians gave us so many memorable characters; all of these, even those who only appeared briefly, made such an impact. A great list, Thor Dukat, reminding me of one reason I love Cardassians so much. When they're bad, they're bad, but when they throw off the yoke of the twisted social order they've placecd themselves under, they are shown to be a truly noble people. Those on your list have certainly earned their place in the Hall of Memories. :)

    As for another possible hero of Cardassia, how about Miras Vara from "Terok Nor", who
    , while still a very young woman, sacrificed her career and her place in society to live on the run as an outlaw, all to spread the teachings of Oralius and keep Her wisdom alive, so as to keep Cardassia's gentler soul from being crushed by Central Command and the OO's poisonous ideologies. Miras Vara sacrificed almost everything- including in a very real way her own identity- to ensure Cardassia would have a foundation from which to rebuild when it eventually fell.
     
  10. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Miras Vara isn't canon, I'm afraid. Otherwise I'd definitely honor her.

    Oh dear...seriously?

    BTW, does Ziyal get a place on the list? I know she's half-Cardassian, and often very Bajoran in culture, but I think she should be honored too because of her efforts at cultural reconciliation...she never blew off the fact that she had Cardassian ancestry and tried to look for what was good in them as well. (Though granted, she could be rather naive.)
     
  11. Thor Damar

    Thor Damar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Ah, I had quite forgotten about Tora Ziyal:alienblush: I shall post a further list either in a few hours or tomorrow and Miss Ziyal will be top of the list.

    Skrain Dukat is on the list solely for his actions in resisting the Klingon Empire with almost no support and indeed for his relationship with Ziyal (at least at the start when he faced losing everything to Cardassian hypocrisy)

    Also the last person on my list is definitely from a non-canon novel so I'm counting non-canonical Cardassians in the list...
     
  12. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    You should also put Kotan Pa'Dar and Alon Ghemor on the list. They were among the leaders of the Detapa Council's coup, but unlike the rest they were not content to simply replace the old tyranny with a new one.
     
  13. AdmiralGarak

    AdmiralGarak Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What I meant was that the Garak's assistance was crucial to the war effort long before Damar turned against the Dominion. See Afterimage in particular. If the Dominion had managed to defeat the allies by the time Damar got around to rebelling, the Dominion would have put him down very quickly. He wouldn't have had Kira, Garak, and Odo aiding his rebels, and he wouldn't have had Dominion forces that were distracted and spread thin.
     
  14. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Kotan Pa'Dar seemed to have his heart in the right place...but I think he was rather lacking in courage compared to someone like a Joret Dal or a Tekeny Ghemor. (This is similar to why I think Dukat should not be on the list--bad motives/lack of strong character.)

    Alon, at least, took ACTION when the time came.
     
  15. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What about Enabran Tain, a man who worked tirelessly for the advancement of Cardassia, sacrificing a personal life or any normality for the the cause he believed in?
     
  16. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Ah, but that cause was not a healthy one. Unrepentent leaders of brutal "secret police" organizations who try to commit genocide, drag their nations into wars with foreign powers and assassinate their own children to facilitate their return to power aren't going to make the list, I'm afraid ;). This is for people who worked to better Cardassia, as in truly better it, break it out of the system it had caught itself in. Tain is the sort of person Ghemor and Lang were trying to free Cardassia from; he's the antithesis of a Cardassian hero.

    Tain's selflessness- and, yes, with the exception of his desire to drag his son into his dark OO world Tain was selfless- was of the deeply unhealthy and twisted variety that set Cardassia on the path towards destruction. Tain is no hero; he's one of the "night people", as "A Stitch in Time" puts it. He thought his allegiance was to Cardassia, but instead it was simply to the secrets. Yes, he sacrificed a normal life- but for what? To become an avatar for everything that was wrong with Cardassia in the first place, to take his people's fears and contain them, lock them down rather than dealing with them, until he became nothing but a vessel for those fears himself. There's nothing left of him, only night...
     
  17. PSGarak

    PSGarak Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^ By that definition, Dukat has no place on this list as well. A terroristic war of one against a government your own government hasn't seen fit to go to war with is not the act of a hero. It's the act of a megalomaniac who feels that he knows better than anyone else what is better for his home world. It was this self-same attitude that led him to allying Cardassia with the Dominion.

    Also, if we're including non-canon accounts, which would mean any of the novels, not only did Garak participate fully and willingly in espionage against Dominion led Cardassian forces during the war, a protracted act that very nearly cost him his sanity, and the ground fight to liberate Cardassia at the end of the war, he did the hard work of finding survivors, clearing bodies, and directly opposing members of the old guard who wanted to take Cardassia back down the dark path of despotism and military rule. He worked tirelessly to ensure that free elections were held, became an advisor to Alon Ghemor, and eventually became Cardassia's ambassador to the Federation. While yes, Damar (who was also a murderer) lost his life in the uprising, what is more heroic? Dying quickly in battle, or cleaning up the mess afterward and living with the consequences of your own choices and forging a better path? Sometimes it just seems to me that people give Garak short shrift because he's not a "military" style hero but a much more quiet sort, one who consciously chose to step from a lifestyle of darkness into the light and bring his people with him as best as he could.
     
  18. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Aren't you judging him by Federation standards here?

    I suppose you don't think Section 31 were true patriots either! :lol:

    "Secrets" are only facts you don't fully know about. The decisions Tain made were not going to be obvious to everyone anymore than those of Section 31, but they have been very good ones for Cardassia.

    He would never be a hero and his working in "night" would always make him easy to view with suspicion. We will never truly know what good he brought his people.
     
  19. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Mmmm, controversy, controversy! That's exactly what such a thread needs! :drool: "One man's hero is another man's villain".
    This is starting to look just like real-life political discussions...

    BTW I just did a google search "Hero or villain?" and the phrase above out of curiosity, and so far I got a bunch of pages about people as diverse as Oliver Cromwell, Christopher Columbus, Jesse James, Stalin, Bill Clinton, John Brown, Nelson Mandela (!) and even Gandhi. :wtf: (Not to mention a few fictional characters such as Magneto, as well as sports figures like David Beckham and Roy Keane. :lol:)
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2009
  20. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    But we know what "bad" he brought them- remember the Founder's answer to Garak in "Broken Link", when he asked if any Cardassians from Tain's fleet survived the debacle? She replied that they were dead (not true, as season five demonstrated) and that- here's the real point of her answer- "all Cardassians are dead" because of Tain's actions. Starting a blood feud with ultra-paranoid genocidal warlords is not in the best service of your people. Thanks to Tain, the Founders would always remember Cardassia as a threat, an enemy- a target.

    As for Section 31, no, they weren't "patriots". They undermined the very ideals by which their society defines itself, functions and on which it was founded. Section 31 is unrecognisable as the Federation, and what it's protecting isn't the UFP but the security of the UFP people- and only the UFP people- against external threats, or sometimes "threats". Section 31 may have the safety of "the people" in mind, but they are traitors to the UFP. Tain and the OO were patriots in that they furthered the ideals on which the modern Cardassia was founded and by which it functioned. However, these ideals were self-destructive, and truly heroic Cardassians are those who recognized that and worked to change it despite the risks.

    In one way Section 31 and the OO are the same- they are defined by fear. They are hyper-sensitive to "threats" and want to weed them out, destroy them, then carry the burden of those dark activities and fears alone so that others don't have to. They seek to protect others from the darkness and fear by confronting it themselves and then containing it so it can't spread. What they don't understand is that the threat never ends, because as long as there are other sapient beings the "threat" or potential for such is there. So Section 31 and the OO begin to see threat and fear and darkness everywhere, and in fulfilling their role of "protecting" they come to align themselves against every external agency including their own people. They become avatars of fear themselves. They never seek to actually deal with the fear- which means reaching out to others, building alliances and communities- instead they contain and lock it down, leaving it to fester. They find and create new fears all the time by seeing everyone as threats, isolating themselves within a mind that is little but a pit of fears and justifications for any actions taken to keep those fears contained there and "protect" others from having to deal with them. They become martyrs in their own minds.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2009