TheGodBen Revisits Enterprise

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by TheGodBen, Sep 5, 2009.

  1. Yug

    Yug Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yup, but evolution does not intend anything, it's adaptation that wins the day. Archer and his crew are in a rare position to intefere with that process or not.

    But please don't make claims that they got it wrong, because you know what's right, because you don't. Not me, not the writers of the episode, not anyone could know the answers, that's the point. The concept is bigger than us all... and neither did Archer, he just stayed out of the way the best he could... that's the message of the episode, the series, and most of science fiction.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2009
  2. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oh crap! :scream: Why did you have to tell me that he's a member? Now I'm going to feel awkward in case he reads the thread and I'll have to rate all his episodes with 5 stars. And I'll have to drop the series of jokes I had planned about his mother. :(

    Interesting, I never knew about that. :) I'll have to read up on it some time, but not tonight; I have less than 22 hours to select a thesis to work on, and I have absolutely no idea what I want to do. :sigh:

    (And if you see me posting on here later tonight, that's because I'm procrastinating.)

    That's one of the things which bugs me too, the Menk are advancing in their current environment and having the dominant species, a species closely linked to the Menk, die out would radically change their environment and hence their evolutionary course. Couple that with the fact that Phlox was criticising the humans earlier in the episode for believing that the Valakians were holding the Menk back whereas Phlox saw the Valakians as having a positive impact upon the Menk.

    Certain breeds of dog are getting smarter because we're breeding them based on intelligence, but if humans died out then dogs would quite possibly be close behind us.

    Yes.

    Rare? I interfered with evolution today, I went to college and came home without dying. And if I should use what I learned today to help build a computer network in a hospital then I'll be interfering with evolution on a mass level. I also crashed into or squashed numerous insects with my car, hence affecting the evolution of their species. And by using this computer right now I am drawing power from a large coal-burning power-station, and I think we all know how the planet is being affected by that.

    We drive evolution, it does not drive us. You can't not interfere with the process of evolution, even if you locked yourself away then your actions will still have removed yourself from the gene-pool.

    No, I don't know what's right, but I have a much better idea of what's right than what was presented in the episode. What was presented in the episode was close to gibberish.

    A point based on a faulty interpretation of reality. If 2+2=5 then I could argue that 5/2=2. It is internally consistent, but that doesn't stop it from being factually wrong.
     
  3. Yug

    Yug Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    No no no, I spoke in the context of the series, apart from that you simply don't know what I'm talkin' bout cuz yer a little smarty pants ain't ya? Respect your elders sonny.

    But hey, you're a good kid... go study, learn somethin'!

    Love you, buddy !!
     
  4. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think you are right insofar that this is what the episode is trying to get at, but imo the writers did a clumsy job of it. To see the problem with Phlox's reasoning, I think it helps to change the scale a bit.

    Imagine that a city, let's call it New Picard, has an influx of an immigrant population. They don't speak the language, and they are poor when they arrive, so they end up working a lot of menial jobs and basically become the city's underprivileged class. But they've improved their situation slowly over time, and seem to be on the brink of making a major step forward.

    Then a devastating plague hits the city, and the immigrant population just happens to be mostly immune, while the currently dominant population will be decimated. You are living in a nearby city, let's call it New Sisko, and you have a cure. Can you justify not curing the New Picardians because, if you don't, the city's underprivileged class will likely end up as the city's dominant population, due in part to the decimation of the upper classes?

    There are just too many false assumptions here, most of which can be applied to Phlox's situation as well.
    1) The Valaxian's lives are worth just as much as those of the Menk.
    2) The Menk may be having their "evolutionary awakening" because of their current interaction with the Valaxian's, not in spite of it. (Note: I'm not sure what is meant by the phrase "evolutionary awakening," and can't think of anything it corresponds to in the admittedly limited reading I have done about evolution.)
    3) The Menk will certainly continue to evolve, in one way or another, even if the Valaxians are cured.
    4) The Menk might end up being the dominant species even if Archer intervenes to prevent the immediate deaths of the Valaxians.
    5) Speculation about how one species might or might not evolve in the absence of another can't justify allowing an entire species to die when those deaths are readily preventable.

    That is basically where my thought process has taken me, though I'm quite sure that others in the thread know more about evolution and probably ethics than I ;)
     
  5. bluedana

    bluedana Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm going to regret this; I can just feel it.

    I think the basic dilemma had nothing really to do with evolution, and everything to do with playing God. It's one thing to happen into a situation where People A are oppressing People B, who do not want to be oppressed. Archer clearly feels that in such a situation, helping People B (say, the non-cabal Suliban) is the right thing to do because the underlying situation is not the natural order of things.

    But with the Menk vs Valakian situation, he's stumbled into a natural situation, not bad guy vs good guy. He can fix the problem, swooping in like a superhero or a god, healing everyone in sight. But what about next time? How could he then not solve the next biological crisis he comes across? And then, why isn't he morally obligated to seek out such crises? There's a difference between the Malurians poisoning the people in Civilization, and being stopped, and the Valakians fighting a natural disease. It boils down to, is that really their job out there, righting biological wrongs?

    Personally, I think you solve the problem right in front of you, and I would have given the cure but withheld the warp technology. I think he made the wrong decision. But I can see how the character would at least be disturbed about playing God, because that's an awful lot of power and an awful lot of responsibility for one man.
     
  6. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yes, that is understandable. That is partly why I think the PD is actually quite a fascinating idea. The problem here imo is that Phlox's reasoning is flawed, and this reasoning is emphasized by the episode, as a reason for not intervening.

    As you say, the episode doesn't really want to be about evolution, so it would probably have been better to eliminate that aspect entirely, and just focus on Archer's decision, which would then basically amount to something like: "I'm sorry, but I don't think I have a right to decide the immediate future of your two species. I'm out here to explore, not to play God." You don't need the bogus evolutionary argument for the episode to be about this.

    The decision would still be debatable, but it would not be based on what is basically a flawed understanding of the way evolution works (at least from what I can tell from my limited understanding of the subject).
     
  7. M

    M Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sorry. I just figured I might save you some embarrassment by telling you sooner rather than later. :(
     
  8. SRFX

    SRFX Captain Captain

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    Who cares if he's a member! People should be able to take criticism where it's due, and that boob of a scene deserves it.

    That said, I found it pretty entertaining to watch. ;)

    TheGodBen - Stay the course! Your reviews are hell of entertaining. :techman:
     
  9. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Incidentally, I was expecting Archer to say something like: "Maybe someday, when my people have more experience with this kind of thing, we will develop a set of rules for dealing with this type of situation, but for now I'm just going to do what feels right and help these people."

    The idea that Archer would just walk away really startled me a bit and didn't feel natural at all for the character.

    If you wanted to deal with the importance of the PD, you could have had Archer trust his instinct to help out, then come back to this civilization later, with some problems having arisen, and basically have the PD develop more organically, through trial and error. You'd have Archer say to himself: "Well, I did what seemed right, but maybe it was shortsighted. I'll have to be more careful next time," and so on.
     
  10. bluedana

    bluedana Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, he didn't really just walk away; he specifically said that they were leaving the research Phlox had done (leaving out that they had found the cure) and that he was sure they'd develop the cure themselves. It appeared that he could live with that compromise.
     
  11. Glacial

    Glacial Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    It is a relief to know that our current understanding of how evolution works is the absolutely correct one, and certainly won't be regarded in the 2150s as we regard how biology was understood in the 1850s.
     
  12. HopefulRomantic

    HopefulRomantic Phloxist Moderator Moderator

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    Personal attacks on any member of this board (outside of TNZ) can be considered trolling.

    Kick around that boob of a scene all you want, as long as you don't aim any kicks at Mr. Sussman. (Or his mom. ;) )
     
  13. FlapJoy

    FlapJoy Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Right on the money !!
     
  14. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm very much of the opinion that true respect has to be earned, and while I don't believe that means it is okay to be rude, it does mean that it's okay for me not to respect someone who refers to me as a "short little fuck" without the accompanying wink smiley. If Mike Sussman were to come in here and call me a dickhead then that would be fair game. ;)

    Thanks for the warning. :techman: From now on all his episodes will automatically recieve the Ron Moore score; 6 stars.

    Joe Menosky's not a member, is he? Because if he is then the Voyager review thread could get me permabanned! :eek: And I once threatened to kick Michael Taylor in the gonads.


    Shuttlepod One (****½)

    Two characters, two days, a bottle of bourbon... and no toilet. :wtf: Star Trek writers: forgetting about one of the most common human functions since 1966.

    Joking aside, I do really like this episode. It may follow the age-old formula of putting two people in a room and watching how they react to one another, but Reed and Trip make a great pairing with a lot of chemistry. To be honest, not much happens in this episode beyond some bickering and bonding so it is hard to review, all I can say is that "It works".

    I do have one complaint however (who would have seen it coming :p) and that is how the situation is very contrived and requires some suspension of disbelief to get to the good stuff. The good stuff is really good and it is so enjoyable that I'm willing to forgive the outlandish premise (a captain who abandons two of his crew without a toilet for two days), but it really does push things. That and "stinky".
     
  15. Tallis Rhul

    Tallis Rhul Commander Red Shirt

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    Aww, even the one that involved the Grand Canyon?

    You didn't see what was inside those used ration packs...

    I liked this episode, but it made me think that Malcolm was a whining pantywaist for some reason. (I wanted him to go out the airlock :/ a little extreme, but there it is.) He's BRITISH dammit, where is his stiff upper lip!?
     
  16. Gep Malakai

    Gep Malakai Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You know, I think I just figured out how Brannon Braga can permanently quash all fandom backlash from here on out... :lol:
     
  17. Yug

    Yug Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I don't like smileys... ya short little fuck! :evil:
     
  18. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Fusion (*****)

    This is a masterful episode encompassing all of the things which make for fantastic television. It had nebulas, Vulcans, angry Vulcans, Vulcan wet-dreams, Archer got thrown across the room, Mayweather hardly said anything, and Steven Segal made a very emotional cameo. Mike Sussman has really outdone himself here (I'm assuming that Mike did all the work writing this episode while Phyllis Strong brought him coffee) and this is easily the best episode of Enterprise so far. Good work Mike! :techman:









































    I heard a rumour that Mike Sussman doesn't know how to scroll down webpages, so I'm putting the real review below this gap in case he is reading.


    Fusion (***)

    The first time I saw this episode I didn't like it too much, but looking back with hindsight I can see how important this episode is for the future of T'Pol's character. And no, I don't mean because of the space AIDS. Knowing of T'Pol's later experimentation with emotion and her Trellium addiction it is now clear to me that these emotional Vulcans present a threat to her, because she wants to experience emotions and one of the things holding her back is the fear that it will make her unstable. Unlike Spock or Tuvok, T'Pol doesn't really seem to believe the Vulcan mantra that emotions much be purged to achieve logic, the reason why she has accepted it is because of the culture she has grown up in. As she spends time with humans she begins to fit into a new culture, one where emotions are accepted, so her desire to explore her own emotions increases. If this was an intentional character trait by B&B then it is reasonably clever, and if it was just an accident that happened because the writers were having trouble coming up with an interesting direction for her character then it still works.

    Buuuuuuuuut... in what appears to be a requirement to return the show to the status quo, Tolaris turns out to be mentally unstable and he assaults T'Pol mentally before assaulting Archer physically. This destroys the good work that the episode was trying to accomplish and T'Pol goes back to purging her emotions. I can kind of understand what the point was, that Vulcan emotions are overpowering and T'Pol can never be free to explore them, but knowing T'Pol's eventual direction this feels like a step back. It also makes Tolaris into a typical and uninteresting villain, which is a pity. It also makes no sense for Archer to judge the entire group as unstable because of one member.

    Another problem I had was the dream sequence, it felt very hokey. Maybe other people experience dreams differently to me, but I have never had a dream like that, the only people who seem to have dreams like that are editors because I've seen that same type of dream on dozens of TV shows. The only show I have ever seen that got dreams right (from my perspective) was The Sopranos, they seemed to realise that dreams, though often surreal, feel normal while you're in them. For example.

    Archer Abuse: 7
     
  19. FlapJoy

    FlapJoy Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yikes!
    Can bluedana take this over this thread for you Ghoul? Or anyone else? It seems they may have a better grasp on this show that you ever will. And without the snarky wisecracks. You're not funny or even the least bit insightful about this series you're "reviewing".

    -NIPPLES AHOY !!!
     
  20. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oh no, my self-esteem has been shot to pieces. :( I guess I'll stop doing this thread then. Or, and this is just a mad thought I've had, you could stop reading if you're not interested in what I have to say. It's not like as if I charged you for the pleasure of reading my thoughts, you're the one who made the decision to open this thread and read it, so it is you who has to justify that misspent time, not me.

    Are my reviews very insightful? No, and they never will be, especially considering how busy I am right now. But I'll tell you what, how about we hold a vote to determine if I should continue? If people vote "Yes" I'll keep going, but if the people vote "No" then I'll ignore them and take a page from my government by holding another vote until I get the "right" answer. :)