TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Dover

    Dover Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    That bothers me, too. I felt like Dukat and Winn clearly have to die, and Sisko and Kira have pretty much equally been adversaries to both of them, so Sisko should kill one, and Kira the other.

    Since the end of the series is so focused on the prophets, I would have gone with Sisko and Winn as Emissary vs. anti-Emissary, and Kira and Dukat representing the military conflict that defined the series. It also would be a nice final closure for Bajor, to have Kira be the one to bring Dukat to justice.
     
  2. Dover

    Dover Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    This part kills me. It's a nice little detail that brings Odo full-circle. He spent his whole life frustrated at having to take a certain shape just to please other people. Then he finally accepts himself and starts to explore who he really is and all the things he can be, and finds someone who loves him in his natural form. And the last thing he does before he leaves is to go out of his way to take the form he thinks she would like best. Gets me every time.
     
  3. heavy lids

    heavy lids Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2013
    Location:
    Denver
    "What You Leave Behind" is almost a perfect ending to a series. I always get somewhat depressed when I finish DS9.
     
  4. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 8, 2009
    I agree with this part especially. While the finale has some obvious flaws, I still find it extremely satisfying on an emotional level, and that is more important. It also brings everything to a close very nicely. There is a sense, obviously, that life will go on for these characters, but the saga has reached its end.

    "Bittersweet" certainly describes the feeling. Odo returning to the link is perhaps the best single moment of this kind. But there are many good ones.
     
  5. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    Next up is the season 7 review, with graphs. Then a proper series review, with bigger graphs. Then I start my long-awaited Golden Girls review thread.
     
  6. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Great Britain
    The finale is a mixed bag but it's satisfying enough. 'All Good Things...' is definitely better written and structured but it didn't really give TNG closure. DS9's finale always gives me the feeling I get when I finish a really good book.
     
  7. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    I suppose part of it was the knowledge that TNG would be returning soon on the movie screen, whereas DS9's finale truly was the end.
     
  8. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    I'm not sure I'd argue that AGT was necessarily better written. It's certainly clever, but it kind of bugs me that the finale of the show showcases Picard at the expense of the other characters and features a largely reset-button ending.

    Admittedly this isn't helped by the direction the movies took.
     
  9. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Location:
    Plano, TX
    I remember feeling more "satisfied" after seeing AGT in 1994. Going back to the beginning, seeing Q, Yar and O'Brien was fun, as was seeing everything in the future. It was definitely a formulaic TNG adventure of the week episode, but it worked.

    Fast-forward to 1999, watching WYLB didn't leave me with that same feeling. Overall I liked it, it definitely had a more final feel which was sad. I loved the montages (except for the glaring ommission of Jadzia) but the Sisko/Winn/Dukat thing bugged me so much that I can't say I loved the episode.

    So to me AGT was better because it was a perfect episode for TNG. WYLB was very DS9 and brought closure to long running storylines BUT the missteps in that episode are hard to overlook.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2013
  10. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Great Britain
    You can tell the writers cared way more about the character goodbyes and sentimentality than the plot which is a shame. DS9 is so good because of its excellent plot arcs so it's a shame the finale doesn't really wrap up the show's main storyline very well.

    Not having Bajor join the Federation was also absurd as it was like.. part of the premise of the show? Thankfully the novels sort that out :).

    Still, WYLB is superior to the NuBSG finale. DS9 suffers from overtly simplified religious stuff but that element killed NuBSG stone dead.
     
  11. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Location:
    Staffordshire, UK
    Woo! About freaking time. :p



















    (And also graphs are nice too.)
     
  12. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 8, 2009
    It's a finale that certainly fits the show, in ways both good and bad. If the Pah Wraith thing had been handled better, I think I would not hesitate to call WYLB the better finale, though, but mostly because DS9 had gone so much further as a saga by that point than TNG ever really did.

    The Pah Wraith business is enough of a misstep that one can certainly hesitate, I think. But, personally, I enjoy WYLB significantly more.
     
  13. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    Location:
    West Coast of Canada
    No, it mustn't end like this. Let the thread live on by reviewing all the Relaunch novels.

    I mean, it can't be any worse than enduring Crusade was.
     
  14. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2012
    I started DS9 on January 1st this year and just finished WYLB two months (and a day, grrr) later. Overall, it was quite good, but I do have some issues.

    Completely agree. Felt like a total joke to me, especially compared to the Vorlon/Shadow conflict on B5.

    Yeah, I agree that I like the general idea of Sisko-joining-the-Prophets, but I have a few big problems with the execution of this.

    One, the whole pregnancy storyline should've been left out for the same reason the Defiant 2.0 should've been; it comes too close to the end to actually mean anything. The only things it affects are one's ep cliffhanger and then Kassidy being sick at the beginning of the next one. All it does is muddle and confuse the "Sisko decides to stay with the Prophets" issue, especially since I think...

    Two, Sisko should've explicitly been said to remain there permanently, as you believe. The idea that he can return (presumably put in because of the baby storyline, maybe because they didn't think audiences would accept a captain dying in the finale, I don't know) just cheapens the impact. Like Sheridian jumping into Z'ha'dum, there must be a sacrifice and it must be permanent. "Sisko remains with the Prophets forever" has soooooo much more impact than "Sisko goes on holiday with the Prophets."

    And the big one...

    Three, it should've been Jake, damnit. Kassidy's an okay love interest, but she's not REALLY that interesting of a character. I don't hate her or anything... but for Sisko's last scene? For his goodbye to the mortal world and everything he loves? No. Should've been Jake, and more than that, it shouldn't have been in a cliche white void; it should've been on the pier, the same pier they shared their first scene together on. If THAT scene had happened, Sisko appearing to Jake on in the wormhole-version of the pier and telling him he won't be coming back... I would've cried, no doubt. As it was, the scene didn't have anywhere near that impact.
     
  15. Supernuke

    Supernuke Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2008
    Location:
    USA
    Thanks for doing this, TheGodBen! I didn't look at every one of your reviews but I did stop by from time to time. I found your reviews to be insightful and very interesting. I'm sure it was very time consuming as well, so thanks again.
     
  16. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Looking forward to the ever-popular graphs and your final thoughts, GodBen! As always, it's been a lot of fun following your review thread. :techman:

    So...Farscape next? :D
     
  17. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    We can only hope. :)
     
  18. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2011
    And he did it for free. It was very interesting as I was re-watching some of the episodes to come in here and fight such bright and insightful commentary. I also learned a thing or two about the show behind the show. Just an amazing piece of work, one of the best threads I have seen in my 10 years of being on any message board anywhere. You are obviously very gifted, TheGodBen. I hope you find some other outlet for this now that you have watched the entire series.
     
  19. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    Star Trek novels have never worked for me. It has nothing to do with the quality of them, but novels get inside the head of characters more than TV shows do, and that's weird for me when reading about characters I think I know. It's like when they do a film adaptation of a book you love and the actor plays the character differently than you had imagined in your head, but in reverse.

    According to MA, the original version of the scene was like that and Sisko was trapped with the Prophets for eternity, but Avery Brooks was uncomfortable with it because he feared some in the audience would see it as a brown man abandoning his pregnant wife. When he explained his concerns to the writers, they rewrote and reshot the scene with Kasidy to include a promise to return some day. Avery Brooks may have been right that a black role model like Sisko shouldn't end the series that way while those stereotypes still exist, so I don't fault him for that, but I prefer a more ambiguous interpretation of the ending.

    As for Jake, it is a little weird that Sisko doesn't say goodbye to his son, but I feel that the lack of a goodbye scene maybe adds a little something to that final shot of Jake looking out the window. That lack of closure is similar to what he went through in The Visitor, to which that shot is a visual callback.


    Farscape is tempting as I know absolutely nothing about it, but doing a first-timer thread is a bit weird. If I were to redo my B5 thread now, I would rerate a number of episodes (some up, some down) because my knowledge of future arcs would affect my feelings about things.

    Thanks. :) Although, I'd substitute the word 'gifted' with 'obsessive'.

    I'll probably do more threads in the future, but I have no definitive plan. I was thinking of maybe TNG, but people seem to want Farscape, and I'm easily pressured into doing things other people suggest. Hence my meth addiction.
     
  20. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    I would enjoy reading your views on TNG most.