TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    Totally agree. Though it makes me wonder how flipping awesome DS9 would be if it were airing now when serial is all the rage vs. 15ish years ago.
     
  2. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    Count me as one of the people who did not like "Space Jesus Sisko" (:rofl:). It was, and still is, very WTF to me. I think it's more profound that Siskos chooses to be "of Bajor" vs. it all being some diving destiney BS. Definitely my least favorite storyline/arc of the season.

    And the Worf storyline made sense, they had to address how utterly pissed he must be about Jadzia's f'ed up death. I was even cool with Julian and Miles tagging along for the ride. But Quark being there seemed almost... disrepectful. The guy just lost his wife, but he's supposed to be okay with listening to all Quark's wise cracks?

    I remember being very underwhelmed by this season's opening. I also remember having a new boyfriend at the time so a lot of my time normally spent analyzing DS9 was diverted :lol:
     
  3. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ah, but it is only because Sisko chose to be "of Bajor" that the Prophets created him to be so. That's the thing about the Prophets, they're not linear. ;)

    The Prophets orchestrating Sisko's birth just doesn't bother me too much. I don't think it adds anything to the show, but I also don't think it takes anything away, it's just another element of the weirdness that is a non-linear species. I can see where you're coming from, but I just don't feel it.


    Afterimage (***½)

    So I guess this is where we discuss Ezri Dax. I liked Jadzia, I like Ezri, they bring different qualities to the show. In a way, Ezri completes Jadzia. In all honesty, the Trill are a boring species, they're pretty much just humans with one unique trait, the ability to sort of live on after death. When the show started, Jadzia was already joined so we didn't really get to see that transition, and there just wasn't enough to the concept to sustain the character so they had to find a way to define Jadzia outside of being a joined Trill. That was fine, but it meant that this interesting concept was relegated to a small handful of episodes. But by dying and being reborn in Ezri, we not only get to see the promise of the Trill being fulfilled, we get a new angle to look at Jadzia. It's a pity that this happens in the final season and thus takes away screen-time from the other characters, but I'm still glad that the show had a chance to address these issues before it ended.

    Afterimage is the necessary step on the road the show chose to go down, they needed to address Ezri's identity issues and her decision to remain on the station. The result is a predictable hour, but not an unwelcome one. Ezri is confused, Jadzia's friends are confused, Worf is confused and angry, and Sisko is possessive and overbearing. The plot is fine, although Ezri's decision to leave Starfleet and subsequent decision to remain was an unnecessary complication that cheapened the really complicated stuff she was going though. The key scenes in this episode are really about Worf and the pain he is going through just from Ezri's presence. In the end, he chose to let Ezri stay, ostensibly because he thinks that's what Jadzia would want, but really it's because he knows he's got a shot at hitting that on a deserted planet if he plays his cards right.

    The real star of the show is Garak, which is true of most episodes he's in. It's good that the show isn't just glossing over Garak's plight, just because he's doing the right thing doesn't mean that it's easy for him. His work is killing thousands of Cardassians, his own kind that think they are serving Cardassia, and that can't be easy for a member of such a patriotic species. The scene where he chews out Ezri is masterful because he's not wrong, he said exactly what many in the audience were thinking, he just saw no reason to be diplomatic about it. Once again, the ending is a tad too tidy, but I guess it frees up to show to return to import stories such as... a baseball game.
     
  4. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    I must be the only one that liked that arc then. :lol:

    I quite liked the opening two-parter. I definitely liked it more than Afterimage, which I thought was average.

    I absolutely hated Ezri with such irrational rage back in the day. It seemed like she was taking up too many episodes, and she came across as too whiney. It was just that I missed Jadzia so much. Sure, she was probably the weakest character in the main cast, but I enjoyed her presence.

    Back to today, and Ezri isn't whiney, she's just confused and conflicted. It was a good move to develop the Trill that way, (whom I find interesting, so :p to you TGB!) While I admit now that she was all right really, I still miss Jadzia, and I still think Ezri takes up too much time away from the other characters. Conflicting feelings all round.

    So in Afterimage, Garak is good. Obviously. Ezri finding her way on DS9, and as the new Dax was also good. All of the counseling I could take or leave, and the end was a bit too neatly tied up.
     
  5. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Unlike Jesus, the Sisko made good on his Second Coming. :p
     
  6. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah, I'm fine with it for that reason. If anything, it underlines the non-linear nature of the Prophets even moreso than what was done previously in the pilot and the Emissary trilogy.

    I'm not in love with the idea or anything, but I think it's a natural extension of what had been established previously about how the Prophets operate.
     
  7. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I suppose if you like humans then you'll like the Trill, because we're virtually identical, except for the spots. :p

    In fairness, he has only been gone for 2,000 years or so, and Earth still has 5 billion years left on the clock. Have some patience. :angel:



    Take Me Out to the Holosuite (**½)

    Everything I know about baseball, I learned from playing Wii Sports. So what I mostly know is that tennis is more fun... and golf... and bowling, and boxing. Essentially, baseball is the most boring to play of all the Wii Sports. It's also the most boring to watch. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't like baseball. I don't really like watching any sports, but baseball would be near the bottom of the list of sports I would watch if I cared enough to make such a list. So an episode about baseball isn't something I expected nor wanted from Deep Space Nine. But a baseball episode is what I've got... and it's okay.

    In many ways, this episode suffers from the same over-indulgence problems as His Way. The writers clearly wanted to do a baseball episode even though they write for a show set on a space station in the 24th century, so they concocted some outlandish reason to do a baseball episode. It's not as big a problem as His Way because the characters at least acknowledge that this whole situation is a bit stupid, and this episode is pure fluff that doesn't impose itself on any character arcs. It's also one of DS9's few ensemble episodes, particularly in the latter seasons. DS9 episodes typically break the characters off into small groups, which is a by-product of having a large extended cast. It's not often that we get to see the whole crew working together, and having fun no less, so that works in this episode's favour.

    Then there's the Vulcans. I know some people don't like the way the Vulcans act in this episode, but it's yet another thing that doesn't really bother me. Vulcans have always had a rather smug, superior attitude, even Spock, so I don't have an issue with the fact that some Vulcans would take that attitude too far. Honestly, I look down on some of the "unenlightened" cultures on our world, the ones that repress women, homosexuals and others. Some Vulcans are going to feel the same way about us "unenlightened", emotional species. At the end of the day, the Vulcans are probably right, they're probably smarter than humans and superior to us in countless ways. But we take more joy from life, so aren't we the real winners in the end? No, but we'll continue to tell ourselves that to make us feel better.

    Form of... an umpire: 34
     
  8. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah, I think this episode and Badda Bing are mostly justifiable from that point view: a chance to get the main ensemble together for some light-hearted fun, let us see them together as an extended family for a while before the show enters the late-season war arc and the characters all eventually go their separate ways.

    Was it absolutely necessary to do this? Maybe not, but I think it has its place.

    One reason I really like season two is the fun group dynamic, with the main cast playing off one another, that tends to get lost a bit in the later seasons. You tend to get a sense of the station as a community at that point in the show. Maintaining that was understandably not a huge priority, but it is good to get everyone together, if nothing else to remind us of the friendships that have been built, and will soon be torn apart.

    My qualms with both episodes really are the holodeck setting of both (I think at least one of these light-hearted episodes should have used the main promenade/station as the setting, and/or Quark's bar). Or maybe we only need one of these episodes, not both.

    I also agree about the over-indulgent quality, though the baseball thing at least has been a well-established interest of Sisko's from the beginning.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
  9. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    Everything I know about baseball I learned from this episode. :p I'm not interested in baseball at all either, but like this ep a great amount anyway.
     
  10. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Chrysalis (****)

    This episode was good, entertaining and had some epic moments that I'm sure will be important in season 2, but it didn't have the shocking twist that I was expecting. The assassination of President Santiago encapsulates all this this, it's an exciting situation, it's suitably epic and the consequences of this aren't going to be forgotten (I'm assuming), but it was telegraphed well ahead of time that something was going to happen, and ultimately I didn't feel anything about his death because Santiago hasn't been a real presence this season. Sure, it was mentioned that he was elected back in the first episode of the season, and we saw his ship at the station one time, but we never met him or had a firm grasp of how important he was. There were times when he felt like a figurehead and that the real power laid with the military or the PsiCorps. Watching EarthForce One exploding was awesome, but I have little reason to care about it right now.

    Wait, I think I'm reviewing the wrong space-station based show.

    [​IMG]


    Chrysalis
    (**½)


    I think we can all sympathise with Sarina here, for her struggle to understand love is something we all go through at some point in our lives. I think the sentiment was summed up best by Haddaway's 1992 masterpiece: "What is love? Baby, don't hurt me. Don't hurt me, no more." Now hit that funky beat.

    [yt]v=2nCUwmE4EeE[/yt]

    [​IMG]


    Emissary (****)

    The moment I saw that blue comet, I knew I was home.

    Emissary probably isn't a great introductory episode if you're a first-timer, the first half is a little chaotic and the second half gets quite weird. But when you know of all the directions the show will take, the paths these characters will go down over the next seven years, this episode acquires a whole new level of appreciation. Sisko's relationship with the Prophets, the Cardassian threat, the looming civil war on Bajor, Odo's origin... All of these seeds, and more, are planted in this episode to be expanded upon later. It has been said it before but it bears repeating, DS9's strength wasn't in that the writers planned things out in advance, but that they were very good at taking threads from previous episodes and tying them into future plots.

    [​IMG]


    Chrysalis (**½)

    Sarina Douglas. Forbidding. Aloof. Terrifying. The mutant with the biggest tits on the promenade... I'm not starting again.

    Chrysalis is an unusual episode to review because it seems to be another romance of the week episode, but sort of ends up being the opposite of the romance of the week formula. I had a joke lined up when I saw the first scene that Bashir was lonely so he latched onto the first woman that showed him any attention, but the joke was on me because that's exactly what the episode was trying to do. Bashir wasn't really in love with Sarina, he just wanted to believe that things were changing for him so he dived head first into a relationship with one of his patients and ended up putting pressure on her that she couldn't bear. When compared to most other Trek romance episodes, this is a surprisingly mature angle on a really tired format.

    But this episode is still using that really tired format for the most part. A man/woman shows up on the station/ship, has a brief fling with one of the main characters, circumstances force them to part and the main character is left heartbroken (for 20 minutes). For the first half-hour, this episode follows that format to a T, it's only in the last ten minutes or so that it becomes apparent that this episode is trying something different, but it still has the same end result. Even the Jack Pack can't do much to set this episode apart from all the other romance of the week episodes.

    Ha!
     
  11. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I find the episode increasingly creepy for the "Doctor falls in love with patient" vibe.
     
  12. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    I was about to bitch slap you for giving Chrysalis a better grade than Take Me Out, until I noticed it was B5. So I take my bitch slap back. For now...

    I really like the baseball episode, as it's a lot of fun seeing the hopeless Niners trying to help Sisko settle his old score. I think it suffers from being yet another fluff episode, yet I'd rank it higher than some of the iffy season six offerings. I'd rank it higher than Chrysalis too.

    I'm not a fan of baseball either, but since the rest of the crew can't play, it doesn't seem to matter much. They're going to help their friend, and they all going have fun doing it. Odo as the umpire was an inspired choice, and I loved O'Brien making scotch-infused gum.

    Romance of the week part 79423 is a strange one. It tries not to be a romance of the week, and yet has all the same trappings. I agree that it's a more mature take on the subject, yet the Bashir/Sarina pairing is a bit too dull to make me care. The episode is worth rewatching purely for more zany Zack Pack energy, and also for the cute Do Re Mi scene.
     
  13. JRS

    JRS Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    True..and Bashir saying to her something about "Lets just leave and go to Risa" does not make any sense, considering there is a war going on:confused: I doubt Sisko would give him leave anyways. The episode would have been much better without the whole romance stuff, IMHO.
     
  14. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Take Me Out to the Holosuite was one of my favorite episodes. After all the serious episodes, it provided a breath of fresh air, and I'll blatantly admit I'm a huge baseball fan, and as much as Sisko has raved over baseball the past six seasons, we needed at least one episode for continuity's sake.

    Chrysalis, well.... when you can sum up the episode with Bashir gets lonely/horny and seduces his emotionally vulnerable female patient, the episode has a creepy level all over it. At least Bashir realized how creepy he was being too by the end. You kind of feel sorry for Sarina at the end of it all. She's grateful, but creeped out which makes perfect sense given how isolated she's been her whole life. For some reason I did like the antics of the Jack Pack singing too. Otherwise an average episode at best, with an interesting take on the dead horse romance of the week.
     
  15. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Accordion Haddaway is far creepier than any vibe I got from Bashir. Plus, having that "Start Again" dude looking at me over and over, it's like I'm in carnival that ain't quite right.:cardie:
     
  16. callea

    callea Ensign Red Shirt

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    Here's one more person who found Julian super creepy in Chrysalis. The ep does try to acknowledge the creepiness, by having it drive Sarina back into herself. That helps a bit, but the ending doesn't quite seem to recognize the extent of the wrongness. Sarina may be intellectually advanced, but she was socially and emotionally disabled. So it comes off as a doctor taking advantage of a mentally challenged women because he's lonely.

    Also putting it together with other actions of Julian's paints him in a very bad light. He seems quite a creeper when you combine his actions in Chrysalis with also stepping over the dr/patient line in Melora and his later willingness to use medial test results as an excuse to get Ezri to come talk to him. Any one of those I'm ok with, but all 3 indicate a pattern of ignoring medical ethics to pick up women. I really like Julian aside from those things, so I choose to erase Melora and Chrysalis from memory to maintain my teenage fan girl crush.

    Aside from the creep factor, the major nit I have to pick with Chrysalis is that the first time around with the Jack Pack, Sarina was in love with Jack. But this episode just forgets that. I think exploring the reasons why a relationship between Sarina and Jack wouldn't have worked and seeing more of how Sarina no longer fit in with her friends would have been more interesting that what we got.

    For Julian's part, I don't think romantic interest in Sarina was necessary. He could have learned a more valuable lesson if his interest in her was strictly medical. Julian's main flaw is his arrogance and tendency to miss the trees for the forest. I'd prefer if he'd have been pushing Sarina to fit into the world as a result of his desire for medical success and proving that, with the right treatment, more genetically engineered can fit into society.

    The pressure from Bashir to be normal without any understanding of normalcy and no longer fitting in with her own "normal" could have what drove Sarina back to her comfort zone. So Bashir's lesson would have been not to forget about the person behind the treatment instead of the one he learned, which is basically "don't be a creeper".
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2012
  17. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It seems like a problem that Bashir might plausibly have, though. Or at least a bad tendency. He's very gifted, but he's also rather insecure, or at least he was often portrayed that way (some of this was muddied a bit by the genetic engineering retcon).

    Having said that, I honestly can't say much about this episode because I don't think I've ever re-watched it. And my first impression, back whenever that was, didn't really stay with me.
     
  18. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree that Bashir was creepy in Chrysalis, but Bashir has always been a bit creepy when it comes to women. His obsession with Jadzia back in season 1 was bordering on harassment, his relationship with Melora was inappropriate, and his relationship with Leeta was so horrifying that they had to have it entirely off-screen. Face it, Bashir was a creep with women, that's why his main relationship on the show was with a man.

    It's amazing what you can find if you're willing to go to the uncharted areas of YouTube. But I must commend the accordionist, he played it with gusto.


    Treachery, Faith, and the Great River (****½)

    Much like Garak, Weyoun is a character that improves an episode just by being in it, so an episode with two Weyouns is automatically a winner. On the surface, the episode's plot isn't all that original, it's about two people fleeing in a runabout which is the sort of stuff we've seen many times before. What makes this episode a classic is the interaction between Odo and Weyoun-6 which allows us to see a new angle on the Weyoun characters, the Vorta species, and the Dominion as a whole. Weyoun-6 may be defective, but he's still very clearly a Weyoun, perhaps with a smidgen of a conscience. Through Weyoun-6 we get to understand the true evil of the Founders, who turned a race of friendly forest-dwellers into a twisted corps of blindly loyal bureaucrats.

    On Cardassia, and Damar's relationship with Weyoun-7 appears to be even less trusting and more acrimonious than the one he had with Weyoun-5, which is a delight for us viewers. The seeds of Damar's rebellion were planted long ago, but in this episode we can see the shoots appearing from under the surface. The suspicions the characters have toward one another, Damar's concern for the Cardassians that have died in the war so far, and his increasing habit of drinking at work are all clear indicators of where things are going. In the middle of all this, Dead Fish shows up and we get the revelation that the Founders are dying of an unknown illness. There's no indication of Section 31's involvement yet, but the writers are clearly planning ahead somewhat with this development.

    Meanwhile, Nog steals Sisko's desk. The B-plot to this episode may be a retread of the B-plot from Progress, but it's such a delightful little story that I don't mind. They key difference is that before Nog was navigating the Great Material Continuum for profit, but now he's using his Ferengi business skills to his advantage as a Starfleet officer. It's a nice way to bring together Nog's roots with where he is right now, and there are a few great gags in the story as well.



    That's it for me this year as I'll be taking a break from DS9 over Christmas. I hope you all enjoy whatever holiday you celebrate, and if you don't celebrate any then I hope you have a pleasant uneventful week. :bolian:
     
  19. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Happy holidays (or lack thereof ;))!

    Treachery, Faith and the Great River
    is a classic, definitely. Along with Chimera and Inter Arma, the best of the season prior to the final arc, I believe.
     
  20. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, brilliant episode, and all that shit. Just glad to have finished work now for three days. ;)

    Merry Christmas everyone! Enjoy whatever you're doing.
     

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