TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't think it takes anything away from the Dukat/Kira story arc. In fact it clarifies things, I mean before this episode when you really think about it, why did Dukat set his eyes on Kira? Why her? Dukat bonking Meru certainly explains a lot.

    That's why this episode should be 3.5 or 4 stars because it totally shakes up Kira's perceptions about collaborators, her mother, and about her father.

    Finally it doesn't interfere with Tora Naprem because a) Ziyal had to be twentyish when she died, which means Naprem gave birth to Ziyal just after Meru died. Also Dukat could have tired of Meru, that would be typical of Dukat as he set his eyes upon Naprem instead.

    Yes because Kirk screwed around too much with the timeline. :devil:
     
  2. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I basically agree, and that's what I meant earlier when I said that my opinion of the episode varies depending on how much Dukat's involvement annoys me.

    It would be a stronger story, I think, if Dukat had been less directly involved.

    I do like the meat of the episode, though, which is Kira seeing another angle of the occupation and being forced to admit that she can't judge her mother as harshly as she would like to.

    Yep. The man is a menace ;-)
     
  3. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I seem to remember watching an interview somewhere that basically Dukat hooking up with Kira's mom was a poke at Nana Visitor's dislike of Marc Aliamo and her blatant refusal to do a romantic scene with him.
     
  4. Minuet

    Minuet Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Speaking of Marc Alaimo, he came into my store recently and I help him with his bags. Apparently he lives nearby to me. Weird D-list celebrity moment. I told him that I recognized him from DS9 and all he said was, "Heh, so you like Star Trek, do you?" He seemed really cool.

    I'm not sure why I interrupted the thread with this. Carry on.
     
  5. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think it was more that, at one point, due to their onscreen chemistry, the writers were thinking of having Kira and Dukat hook up. You can tell they are thinking about going there in season 4 or thereabouts. But Visitor hated the idea, not because of Alaimo, but because of Dukat.

    I do think she also talked about how she got into character for Kira, and Kira loathed Dukat so much, that she had a hard time being civil to Alaimo (while in character). Something like that.
     
  6. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I disagree, this episode explains nothing. Dukat was attempting to win Kira over because he has a psychological need to be loved by the Bajorans (or at least he did before Waltz), and since Kira is the Bajoran he spends the most time with that's where he focused his attention. There was an added bonus in that Kira absolutely hated Dukat with every bone in her body, so winning her over was the ultimate challenge and would prove he could get any Bajoran to love him. I consider that to be a far, far superior explanation to Dukat's interest in Kira than him having been involved with her mother and being a bit of a creep.


    Inquisiton (****½)

    For the first half of the episode, Inquisition plays like a redux of TNG's The Drumhead, and that's no bad thing, but it ends in a way that's the antithesis to that episode, which is also no bad thing. Both plots appear to be the same on the surface, a Starfleet investigator shows up and is driven by personal reasons to uncover a conspiracy where there likely isn't one. The divergence begins at around the half-way point, because while Satie began to use fanciful arguments to pursue her investigation, Sloan's arguments start to seem plausible and the audience begins to wonder if he may be correct, especially once Bashir is abducted by Weyoun. The major difference is that while The Drumhead ended with Picard giving a speech about the importance of due process, Inquisition ends with Sloan pooh-poohing that notion in his own little speech and arguing that such a position is naive.

    To make things clear, I do not agree with Sloan's position, I definitely identify more closely with Picard's speech than Sloan's. But it is an interesting and entertaining moral argument and I feel it deserves to be had. The problem with Roddenberry's vision of a perfect future is that to depict it you have to brush a lot of problems under the rug and pretend they don't exist, and if Star Trek really is supposed to be a series that explores these moral themes then the Roddenberry Box is counter-productive to the supposed goal of the franchise. Right now in the real world there are organisations working for supposedly enlightened democracies that act in ways which are less than enlightened. How are we supposed to move past the need for these dark agents if we're not allowed to have a mature conversation about them?

    Yes, Section 31 does not fit with Roddenberry's vision of the future. But I don't care.

    One of the minor flaws I have with this episode is that it's a bit late in the series to be introducing a group like Section 31. With less than a season and a half to go, there's a sudden, shocking revelation that has been retconned into the entire franchise. It's not that big of a problem considering part of the point of Section 31 is that nobody is supposed to know of them, so the fact that they emerge from nowhere isn't that unreasonable. But being a late addition does limit what can be done with them in the future. However, as a plus, the great thing about the investigation into Bashir is that it's based entirely on events that we've seen happen on the show. This episode manages to twist things we thought we knew to support a position we can almost believe, and it manages to poke some fun at the absurdity of some of the things that came before as well.
     
  7. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    To be sure, the episode never entirely refutes the possibility that Bashir could have been working with the Dominion without being aware of it. :p If anything, I'm a little bothered by his refusal to even consider the notion.
     
  8. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    The runabout left in orbit over the Dominion internment camp being the most notable. :)
     
  9. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Having Section 31 make plausible arguments is also important if they're going to be effective antagonists. I believe they are, for the most part, and it's largely because Sloan is permitted to hold his own against Bashir. Indeed, he even comes across as the more sophisticated of the two at times (given that Bashir can be rather black-and-white in his thinking). An effective villain needs to challenge the hero, and Sloan is permitted to do that; not only directly but by rebutting Bashir's idealized worldview for the audience. Sloan is the villain who offers temptation, who speaks what sounds reasonable, and that's the sort of danger we need in the antagonist if we're going to be addressing the issues Section 31 is concerned with. After all, if there weren't good arguments for such positions and behaviours, they wouldn't be so threatening and so it wouldn't be so important that they be challenged. Given that from this point on Sloan will be viewing Bashir as an asset whether Bashir likes it or not, a large part of his credibility as a villain consists of being able to construct a frighteningly good case for himself - just as this episode manages to construct a convincing case for Bashir being a programmed Dominion agent. :)
     
  10. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    I remember seeing the promos for this episode before it aired. It came in the wake of Ziyal's death and I remember thinking, "Please, do not let them find some warped way to make Kira Dukat's daughter."
     
  11. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Even though it was brought up, I'm still disappointed the reason for that little 'runabout ex machina' wasn't explained.
     
  12. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One of the things that I like about Sloan is that I don't quite see him as a villain even though I disagree with everything he stands for. All things considered, Sloan is no more a villain than Garak, both are willing to do unconscionable things for the preservation and enhancement of their peoples. But we've grown so used to Garak that we no longer consider him a villain, and because he's a Cardassian so we can disassociate him from his actions. But because Sloan is a human we find it more distasteful, because he's one of us. How could one of our kind possibly do such things?

    It's a pity that the two characters never met, it would have made for a fascinating conversation.


    In the Pale Moonlight (0)

    This episode represents the low-point of DS9, the episode which proved that DS9 isn't real Star Trek. Murdering people is wrong, Gene Roddenberry taught us that back in the 60s, and now DS9 is ruining his legacy and shitting on his... urn. Also, Avery Brooks is a hammy actor and ruined the episode by staring at the camera. That's such a basic mistake that anyone would think the fool had never acted on television before. Finally, Garak is a terrible character. There's no depth to him, and he's a bit gay.

    [yt]v=7qKcJF4fOPs[/yt]

    Sorry, I had to.


    In the Pale Moonlight (*****)

    This was probably the most predicable score I've ever awarded considering how many times in the past I've proclaimed this as my favourite episode of Star Trek. What makes this episode so fantastic is that it's a perfect combination of a vital arc episode, an honest moral dilemma, and a powerful character piece. You're lucky to find an episode of Star Trek that manages to focus on one of those elements and knocks it out of the park, maybe two. But all three? All of which work together perfectly and build to a sequence of twists that leave you glued to your seat? To a final monologue that has come to encapsulate the whole show for fans and haters alike? This episode manages all that, and that's why it is something really special.

    One other great thing about this episode is that it does flashbacks right. Sometimes with Trek, flashbacks are just used as a cheap way of grabbing the audience's attention at the start of the episode. But in this episode the flashback and Sisko's monologues are a major part in what makes the episode so memorable. They set the tone from the very first scene, you know that something bad is about to happen but you don't know what. For a time you even begin to worry that Sisko's plan backfired and the Romulans declared war on the Federation. That whole sequence is wonderfully done.

    The revelation of Garak's true plot is just so wonderfully Garak, and reveals that the character hasn't been softened at all by his time spent around humans. Garak is a magnificent bastard, he's always thinking several steps ahead, and now he's the saviour of the the Star Trek universe as we know it. Even Gene would begrudgingly respect Garak's plan, once he gets through with spinning in his... urn.

    If there is one flaw with this episode it is that Sisko actually did live with it. This dark act that weighs so heavily upon his soul is lost with the record of Sisko's log. But I suppose there's not much more Sisko can do about the matter, he can't tell anyone what he did and he already explained the incident to the wall of his quarters. One of the sad things about this episode is that its contents can't really be addressed again.
     
  13. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    :rommie: Good to see you're still doing this joke. I've only been fooled by it once (in your B5 thread;, which I'm going through right now as I watch the show for the first time, you got me with your rating for "The Coming of Shadows"), but I still like it. Anyway, yeah, In The Pale Moonlight is brilliant.
     
  14. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    When I saw that 0 rating my first thought was, "It's a faaaaaaaake!"

    (ducks)
     
  15. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    For a few moments my jaw dropped!

    Totally agree with your review of the episode. It's perfect because it divides the viewers in two camps: one side LOVES it and the other side HATES it, that's always a sign of a great episode!
     
  16. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yep. Another testament to how good it really is, for me, is the fact that it can still be suspenseful, when I rewatch it, even though I know exactly what is going to happen.
     
  17. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Very good points, TGB. You've put your finger on something (or several things) quite important. I'll have to give it a think next time Section 31 crops up.
     
  18. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There are quite a few things like that on DS9, where ideas don't always pop up in a timely fashion, or you think: I wish they had introduced this idea earlier, or I wish they had brought this up again at some point.

    Somewhere in the ether there is a version of DS9 where the creators get to go back to season one and start over from scratch with all the ideas that cropped up over the course of seven seasons in mind... and that show is the platonic perfection of sci-fi shows ;)

    As it is, I can't really fault the writers for trying new things, introducing new concepts, etc., even if they sometimes feel a little awkward. It's far better than stagnation.

    Section 31 is an awesome concept, and I wish we'd seen more of it. As it is, Inter Arma is a classic, and well worth introducing the idea on its own. Too bad about Extreme Measures, though. Inquisition is... good, though I wish they hadn't fallen back on the tired *virtual reality that dissipates* scenario here.
     
  19. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Agreed. :) However, does that also imply that somewhere else in the ether is a version of DS9 set in a Risan resort in the rain, where the main character arcs involve Quark's casual sex-change operations, Dax's romance with a dull Meridianite, and Rumpulstiltskin participating in a Wadi games tournament?
     
  20. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Probably so :rommie:

    You make me grateful for what we have ;)
     

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