TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I've read similar comments on this episode from time to time. It never really struck me that way, but I guess you do have to accept the bond between Kira and Ghemor for this story to work. It's always worked for me because I felt it was strong enough in Second Skin to be believable here as well, or for this to be believable as an extension of that.

    To me the issue in that scene is more Bashir's side of the dialogue, rather than Kira's. At least that's how it struck me in the past. There are lines where Bashir spells things out unnecessarily. But... not enough of a problem to really matter imo.

    Love the final scene on Bajor especially.
     
  2. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It seemed to me like they had to have corresponded in SOME way that we never saw--but, I also thought that they bonded very strongly as a result of their shared experience in "Second Skin." I also always imagined a lot happened off-camera during the ride back to DS9 from Cardassia, and back on the station before Tekeny went into exile with the Mathenites.
     
  3. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ferengi Love Songs (*)

    This is yet another episode that I put off watching for far too long, but I finally worked up the courage. It's bad, it's stupid, it's annoying, and it's not funny. The episode contains a lot of the worst of DS9 while containing very little of its best, I dread to think that somewhere in the world somebody is tuning into DS9 for the first time and this episode will completely shape their opinion of the show.

    Ishka is never going to show up on a list of DS9's best characters, but it's still disappointing how her portrayal has devolved between Family Business and this episode. She used to be a determined Ferengi feminist, willing to stand up against the oppression in her society and within her own family, but at the same time she still loved her family and was willing to make a sacrifice for them. She was about as good as you could expect from a female Ferengi character. which isn't saying that much, but it's something. Hardly any of that is present in this episode, here she is portrayed like a teenage girl falling for her first crush. She's whiny, over-emotional, annoyingly smitten, and just a little clueless. I don't blame the new actress for this change, that's just the way the character was written this time around.

    So, why the one star? Partly because my expectations were so low going into the episode that it managed to rise slightly above them, and it's partly because of Brunt and the always watchable Jeffrey Combs. Just like Ishka, Brunt isn't a great character, but he's probably the best Ferengi villain we can ever hope to see. He can be annoying, just like all the other Ferengi characters, but he's a pretty good foil for Quark.
     
  4. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    For whatever reason, I rewatched this episode not too long ago. I think I was just going through that part of the season or something.

    I knew it was bad, but man, it was even worse than I remembered. Just painful. As good as DS9 can be, occasionally it is just putrid.
     
  5. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    I actually found Ferengi Love Songs not that bad. It's definitely weak, but that's all. I wouldn't call it bad, and it definitely wasn't painful for me to watch; just boring. There are only 4 DS9 episodes I would call bad, namely Meridian, The Muse, Let He Who is Without Sin... and The Emperor's New Cloak; and of those two actually have enjoyable B-plots. The A-plots of these two, and the other two episodes entirely are just painful to watch. I'd probably give Ferengi Love Songs two stars, or maybe 1.5, myself.
     
  6. InklingStar

    InklingStar Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Have you blotted out "Profit and Lace" from your memory? If so, I envy you.
     
  7. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    No, I just didn't see what the fuss was about. Sure, it's a crappy episode, but it's hardly as awful as people make it out to be. At least, that's my opinion.
     
  8. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Soldiers of the Empire (***½)

    So, I watched this episode over a week ago, then I got a mild flu and didn't spend much time on the computer, so it's not as fresh in my memory as these episodes normally are when writing these things up. I mostly enjoyed it, it's a pretty good Klingon episode that explores their command structure without Federation officers judging them by their own values. We get to see some pretty distinct Klingon characters, and Martok's character is fleshed out a little more. There's not much plot to drive things along, but it's okay.

    Too much Klingon material can get annoying, they're a popular race but they sure can get repetitive. This episode mostly avoids that, but you still can't get away from it completely, Klingons are generally very simplistic and like fighting things for the sake of fighting. You need a good actor to flesh them out and give them nuance, which is why the character of Martok works so well, but you just can't expect that sort of thing from every Klingon character. I wonder sometimes about the actors that are cast as Klingons and what that process is like, especially if they're not familiar with Star Trek. Do they ever feel goofy playing such simple-minded characters, as so many Klingons are? Perhaps they see it as a fun change from the regular small-time roles they play?
     
  9. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    I think there's a part of us all that wants to spend a day bellowing "you have insulted my honour. I WILL KILL YOU WHERE YOU STAND!" rather than having to engage in rational conversation and social niceties. :lol: So I've wondered if Klingons, makeup aside, are just really fun to play. Which might mean, for the supporting actors who don't have fully fleshed out characters, that you don't bother too much with nuance and subtle hints of personality. You're just a snarling, blustering barbarian warrior.
     
  10. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Children of Time (***½)

    Based off of an old Enterprise episode, , this episode takes that one's brilliant, satisfying, and completely original story and turns it into an abortion allegory. Everyone is tired, but Jadzia wants to have some fun and pressures the guys into doing something risky. She miscalculates, and bang: 8,000 unwanted children. Will the crew abort all those children so that they can continue their normal lives and careers, or will they sacrifice their present happiness and live a bitter, disappointing life on a deserted planet in order to preserve life? In the end the answer is simple: a man made out of magical gelatin tricks the crew into having an abortion against their will, and they soon forget about the entire event. Legislators, take note; this is the solution to this complex moral question.

    So, in 6 or 7 generations, 48 people become 8,000. That's pretty impressive population growth. And you have to factor in that only a third of the crew at most are women, and one of them dies, so that only leaves around 15 women to 33 men. And that's not considering that a substantial number of those people are aliens that are sexually incompatible with one another without advanced genetic techniques probably not available to the survivors of the crash. I'm presuming that's why Jadzia and Worf don't have any descendants together but had children outside of their marriage with compatible partners. In fact, necessity probably drove a whole lot of wife-swapping on that planet, I can see why so much of the crew were willing to go through with the crash.

    In all seriousness, this is a good episode with a great sci-fi story, great character material, no easy technobabble solutions, and a shocking ending. So why only give it 7/10? It just a bit messy in the execution. One big problem is the way that Oldo is presented to us, he doesn't interact with anyone other than Kira. We never see him with the other colonists that he has been living with for 200 years, so his decision to betray them doesn't have the impact it should. For all we know, Oldo and the colonists don't get along, maybe sacrificing them means little to him. It would have meant more if we had some acknowledgement that Oldo was sacrificing his friends to save Kira, but I suppose doing so would have made things even more unpalatable. Also, and this may seem like a minor quibble, but I don't like the music in this episode. Music is a very personal thing and I'm sure the music worked for most people watching this episode, but for some reason it just doesn't work for me and kept distracting me. So that's an entirely subjective thing that I personally have to rate the episode down for, your mileage probably varies.

    Form of... Oldo: 31
     
  11. Distorted Humor

    Distorted Humor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So, in 6 or 7 generations, 48 people become 8,000. That's pretty impressive population growth. And you have to factor in that only a third of the crew at most are women, and one of them dies, so that only leaves around 15 women to 33 men.

    Exponential growth. and decent lifespan can do it.

    Lets say you have 3 generations alive at one time. And assuming there is no cloning or use of artificial wombs or what not.

    Avg 4 children per woman
    Gen 1 - 48 (15 woman)
    gen 2 - 60 (30 woman)
    Gen 3- 120 (60 woman)
    Gen 4 - 240 (120 woman)
    Gen 5 - 480 (240 woman)
    Gen 6 - 960 )480 woman)
    Gen 7 - 1920 (960 woman)
    Gen 8 - 3840 (1920 woman)
    Gen 9 - 7680 (3840 woman)

    If generation 8 is born, then you only need 1280 of generation 9 or older generations still alive to get to 8,000, and if you have a general goal of baby production, with plenty of land to support food production, 4 is a low number per woman. (I used it since it doubles the population each generation.
     
  12. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    I first saw this episode when it aired and I remember thinking that Worf and Jadzia's descendants should be the same if they got married, like Yedrin should have had forehead ridges and spots, you know? It wasn't until over a year later did viewers learn than Jadzia and Worf are biologically imcompatible.
     
  13. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I always wanted to know... did Jadzia and Worf split up in this timeline? There are Trill with spots and symbionts... no Klingon head ridges. There are Klingonesque people... no Trill spots. Neither Dax or Worf(him especially) seemed bothered by their very obvious breakup. For that matter Kira or Odo didn't seemed to be bothered by Kira apparently hooking up with some random Defiant crew member being there were Bajorians running around too.
     
  14. Distorted Humor

    Distorted Humor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    kira dies in that timeline before she could have some kids, but there may very well be other bajoirans on board to provide the DNA.
     
  15. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Could be, I just never recall ever seeing a Bajorian officer other than Kira on the Defiant. But possible.

    It still doesn't explain Worf and Dax.
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Could be they had an open relationship. :)
     
  17. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Dax I could see doing that. Worf I could see murdering anyone who looks at Jadzia... which he almost did to Bashir and Quark. ;)
     
  18. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He lightened up in his old age. :p
     
  19. Spock/Uhura Fan

    Spock/Uhura Fan Captain Captain

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    I thought Ferengi Love Songs wasn't that bad, but at the same time, I think the Ferengi stories are some of the weakest in general. Perhaps that's because they are made out for comedic purposes too much. A little less cheese and a bit less corn and many of these stories could have been a lot better. Children of Time was an alright episode to me. I think Jadzia and Worf probably stayed together, but they also did what they had to do to contribute to population growth. It's possible that when they couldn't have children of their own, someone in the group volunteered to help out by donating their genetic material so that Worf and Jadzia could have children they could raise together too. And of course, for Worf, a woman would have had to volunteer to be a surrogate. This happens with infertile and gay male couples today in societies with no population growth issues. Soldiers of the Empire was very nice. Nuff said. :)
     
  20. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Blaze of Glory (***)

    Remember back when Cardassia joined the Dominion and they wiped out the Maquis in a brutal slaughter that shamed the Federation due to its inaction? That was a great episode, wasn't it? It's a shame that they didn't include it on the DVDs because of the explicit sex scenes, that was a really bad call by Ira Behr in hindsight. :shifty:

    The Maquis always seemed like an afterthought on DS9, there was a lot of potential for great stories involving them but DS9 instead chose to focus on the Dominion and the Klingons, and the Maquis got relegated to one or two episodes per season. So it's fitting that their final episode is also a bit of an afterthought, coming several months after their destruction. And the episode's main focus isn't even the Maquis, but the animosity that exists between Sisko and Eddington, an animosity that largely happened off-screen. The irony is that Eddington gets a strong finish to his character-arc even though it barely even had a beginning or middle.

    It's also a little strange that the entire plot for this episode is based on Sisko's desperation to prevent a war that I know he is going to start anyway. The stakes have never been so inconsequential. The episode still works as a character piece, and the ending is reasonably effective in reminding us that the Maquis were just people that deserved better than to be annihilated by the Jem'Hadar. But it does get a bit tiresome hearing Eddington repeatedly threaten to kill Sisko.

    Meanwhile, Nog goes all racist and looks for opportunities to bully the Klingons. It's an okay comedic plot, but someone needed to tell Nog that using his authority as a security officer to single out a specific species for committing minor infractions isn't a good idea.

    Also, Odo and Kira seem to have gotten past their awkwardness from the previous episode, so they probably wont be avoiding one another and having a big discussion in the coming weeks.