TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Paper Moon

    Paper Moon Commander Red Shirt

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    Oh, okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, you're right, they did tone in down quite a bit, which is probably good.

    And I agree that the way Siddig found out really isn't okay. In his position, I would have been pretty pissed. "What, first I'm changeling and now I'm genetically enhanced too? What's next?"

    I should probably walk back my enthusiasm for the whole idea a bit. I think it can be made to make sense in the fun way that many other things in DS9 can be made to make sense ex post facto, but the sudden, rash decision in-and-of-itself was definitely a poor production call. Sorta like, in-universe, it's cool, but out-of-universe, not so much. The idea was good, the decision and execution were not. So I definitely understand where you're coming from. :)

    I wouldn't be too sure of that, actually. I'd bet that a lot of 31 operatives have some sort of superiority complex (or at least a latent one), and Bashir's enhancements did give him, theoretically, such a complex.

    But in any case, I'm just not sure it would have made sense from a story perspective to have 31 be interested in a non-enhanced Bashir. Why try to take an overly idealistic Starfleet officer and try to convert him to a ruthless and utterly pragmatic cause? Why not take someone we already know to make morally questionable calls in the name of the greater good (like Sisko when dealing with Eddington, or eventually during the Vreenak affair, or Worf during "Rules of Engagement") and work to convert them instead?

    And I just don't buy Bashir's spy programs as reason for 31 to be interested. They're just that– games, and in 31's place, I'd be worried that Bashir would treat a real spy mission as just another game. Too much risk.
     
  2. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't what you other guys are complaining about, but Bashir turning out to be genetically engineered was the best thing that could have happened to the character. Suddenly he became distinctive, and a candidate for the forthcoming Section 31 plots (and Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges is one of the most coolest, cleverest and complicated episodes ever!). Without this Bashir would have been another Harry Kim, always there but never really standing out.

    At last Bashir is standing out, plus his parents were cool, I love Bashir's father's English accent. For the most part this revelation about Bashir being genetically engineered fits rather decently with all the development and characteristics of his character.
     
  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, the genetic enhancement storyline only helped Bashir. I liked him before then, but I won't disagree that without it he was kind of underdeveloped. I just wish they'd come up with the idea a few years sooner so that they could have laid down the groundwork properly.
     
  4. datalogan

    datalogan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" shows another dark side of 24th century Earth/Federation society. But this time we can't blame DS9 for creating it. It was created by Gene Roddenberry himself back in TOS. Yes, I'm talking about the negative view of genetic engineering.

    I actually really like this "new" aspect of Bashir. Really develops his character. And put all of him in a new light.

    But before I get into that, let me talk a little bit about the rest of the episode. Starting with the other "dark" side of 24th century humanity presented here: Richard Bashir. Here we have, really for the first time ever on Star Trek, a "failed/looser" human. Richard succeeds at nothing. And he isn't comfortable with that. He continues to move from one failed project to the next, lying about all his "successes" along the way. And I like that. Too often we are told that Earth is a paradise and all of humanity is awesome and in great shape doing exactly what they want in life, "enriching the world in which they live". Well, not EVERYBODY can be successes. Not everybody can have their perfect job. Somebody has to do the crap jobs like "waste processor", etc. Unless all crap jobs are done by robots or something. (There are surprisingly few robots cleaning up the back-ground of Star Trek society.)

    I liked Rom and Leeta getting together. And it was done in a fun, but realistic way.

    Robert Picardo was great, as usual. And it was nice that Louis Zimmerman was actually fairly well developed for a guest character. Sure, he's a bit of a jerk, but he's also quite charming . . . and a genius of course.

    I loved the development of the friendship between Miles and Julian.

    OK, now I'll talk about the elephant in the room, genetic engineering.

    I think the way the genetically enhanced appear to be treated in Federation is wrong. They are being singled out and treated like criminals, having unfair limitations put on their lives just because some "artificial/unnatural" means was used to turn them into who they are today. Why should that mater? They, like everyone else, should be judged solely on their actions in a democratic society like 24th century Earth/Federation, not on unimportant things like genetic differences. Heck, even a number of states in the modern-day USA have laws against discrimination based on genetic differences.

    Even if you concede that genetic engineering is wrong (which I don't), you still shouldn't punish the innocent. Julian had no say in the genetic engineering that happen to him as a child. He didn't even know it had happen until he was 15. It was his parents' decision, not his.
    (Side note, I love how Jules decided to change his name to Julian once he found out about his nature. I think names are so important to someone's identity. And when you learn something that significant about yourself, a change in name seems appropriate. [This from someone who had his name legally changed to Data.])

    I think you can't (shouldn't) treat someone differently just because you question where they come from. You can't withhold them from participating in society just because they are smarter or stronger. Only if they have other issues or reasons they can't fit into society. Real reasons, like severe autism or pervasive personality disorder.

    Some would argue that you can't allow anyone to reap the benefits of their illegal genetic tampering because it will just motivated more to go do it. And I think that's ridiculous because there's nothing intrinsically wrong with genetic enhancements. Having more abilities does not make you a power-raving madman like Khan Noonien Singh just because. That's a circular argument I never agreed with Star Trek on.

    If the argument that "superior ability breeds superior ambition" is to be taken as a truism, then it means that EVERY SINGLE creature of advanced ability will become a power-hungry criminal like Khan. But if you admit that Bashir would never do that, then you must admit that not EVERY single advanced person will make immoral decisions or "think like that".

    Therefore, I argue that there is no moral ground to curtail their lives, nor people who choose to bring them into the world. It's part-and-parcel in a democratic society like the Federation: equality for all, innocent until proven guilty. You have to prove that a person is a danger to society before you can over-ride their civil liberties. And even if the genetically engineered do TEND to be meglomaniac (which I don't concede), you still can't just take away civil liberties from the entire group based on the majority. Ever single person must be treated separately, requiring their own separate burden of proof before society can take away their rights.

    And people are not dangers to society just because they are more capable. Even if they do tend to be more "ambitious", that does not mean that that ambition will lead to criminal or immoral acts. It takes ambition to become a doctor and help people, too.

    And genetically engineered do not have a monopoly on crime. There are plenty of examples of non-augmented common men that did horrible things. One example off the top of my head: Kodos the Executioner.

    I understand Gene Roddenberry wanted to keep the show about the common man. And so he limited the number of superior men (genetically anyway). But I disagreed that he had to make the genetically engineered a censured sub-race to do so.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating running blindly into the murky waters of genetic tampering. We need to take these steps slow. Especially when our test subjects are living, sentient beings. When things go wrong we can't just "throw away the batch" and start over.

    We also need to be careful to not have everyone jump on the band-wagon and ride off into the most perfect genetically engineered future we can make for ourselves. We still need diversification (IDIC). We don't all want to have "genetically perfect" kids only to find out later that they are all equally susceptible to the same ailment and the entire human race dies out.
     
  5. datalogan

    datalogan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Here's another fun thing: rewatching the earlier episodes (all 5 seasons) with an eye towards moments that take on a different light when you realize Bashir is genetically enhanced and covering it up (even though the writers and actors didn't know this at the time). I find it works remarkably well. This post will list some of these moments. And there's a lot.

    First, in general you can say that Bashir was hiding some of his more advanced abilities (like racketball, tennis, dart throwing, rapid mental calculations) all of his life, of at least since he found out at age 15. But I think that he probably never really held back when working on medical problems. He would never have been OK with people dying just so that he could keep his genetic enhancements secret. I think that his memory skills and hand-eye-coordination, etc, all those skills that made him a great doctor, had been enhanced to a great level certainly, but not to a level beyond possibility for a non-enhanced person. Laypeople understand so little about medicine anyway. Most laypeople see doctors as already amazing and magical. No matter what outrageous things he does (like bringing people back from the dead; mentioned early on in "The Passenger") most people will just think he's just like all other doctors. It's only when he does things to get the attention of other doctors (like graduating at the top of his class would have; or like being the youngest person to be nominated for the Carrington Award in "Prophet Motive") that he needs to worry too much about what he does in medicine. It's the enhanced non-medicine things that he does that cause him more problems.

    Remember the short scene at the beginning of "A Man Alone" where Bashir tries his hand at the Altonian brain teaser that Dax had been trying to master for over 140 years? Bashir tries the game (with Dax present) and does horribly. She jokes that he must have "something on his mind" and then leaves, but encourages him to try the game again. As the scene ends we hear Bashir say "computer, reset" but we don't see his next attempt at the game. I think that with Bashir's genetically enhanced and structured mind that this game would actually not be all that difficult for him. Although not shown on screen, I think that when he tried the game again (alone in the room so he doesn't have to worry about what people are seeing) that he easily wins. And we never again see Bashir trying the game. It's too easy for him.

    I think there are some retroactive reasons for why Bashir gloats a bit about significant medical events like reviving that dead guy in the beginning of "The Passenger" even though it would seem to draw undue attention to him (and he should be better at reading people and getting along with them):
    (1) It really is a pretty impressive thing, and genetically enhanced or not, Bashir is young and wants to get some credit. Maybe a least part of him really wants the acknowledgment of his great deeds. Remember, Julian didn't know of his genetic enhancements until he was 15, plenty of time to develop a healthy arrogance about being better than everyone else. In fact, that's probably why his parents finally told him, so that he would tone down on the gloating and showing off (and tennis playing) so they wouldn't get found out.
    (2) Maybe Bashir thinks that he can actually distract people away from the great dead (which might lead people to question his abilities) by gloating a little too much and therefore distracting people by having them think he's a annoying stuck-up know-it-all
    Either way, it relies on Bashir being a very good judge of the people he talks with. Can you just imagine what his life is like, constantly having to lie to people and judge how they react to those lies?

    I always thought it was weird in the early seasons how he was a bit of a ladies-man with women (like at the beginning of "Q-Less"), but everyone else thought he was a stuck-up kid they didn't want to hang out with, and he was always so clueless when it came to dealing with Garak. I think Bashir, even early on, is much more capable of being tactful in situations and controlling conversations the way he wants them to go. He would need to have honed those skills a little to keep his secret. But he almost purposely acts up a little too much (too annoying, or too proud, or too whimpy) to keep people off-kelter. In early seasons the only people he ever uses his full-blown conversation skills on are the women he dated. He is a young man after all, into sex as much as any other (as far as we get on TV). But I would/could also argue that Bashir is really still trying to find a balance. Still trying to know how much to lie and how much to reveal his true self. Remember, he didn't even know about his own genetic enhancement until he was 15. So his genetic enhancements couldn't really be all that much beyond regular people, or he would/could have been found out earlier. Maybe in these early seasons he really is what he seems, a brilliant young man trying to find a balance between pride in his work and modesty, while only occasionally worrying about getting "found out".

    In "Q-Less" we learn that Bashir mistook a preganglionic fiber for a postganglionic nerve during the oral exam phase of his Starfleet Medical finals. Obviously any first year medical student would not likely mistake a preganglionic fiber for a postganglionic nerve. So it's likely that Bashir threw the question on purpose so that he would not be valedictorian. Maybe, like any person in that position, he just did it because he was nervous about being valedictorian and wanted to let someone else take the title. But maybe he threw the question on purpose because he thought the valedictorian title might lead to too much scrutiny. And he only needed the salutatorian title to get him the position he wanted out on the frontier. In fact, maybe he wanted to work out on the frontier because it kept him away from other doctors who might question his brilliance, something the "simple locals" wouldn't do as much (as stated in "Emissary"). Although some locals did see his brillance, like in "Babel", when Surmak Ren noted his great work.

    In "The Passenger", maybe the only reason Rao Vantika's technique for imprinting his conscience onto a human brain was because it was Bashir's genetically engineered brain that already had a great sense of compartmentalization. And Rao Vantika noted that he really liked his "new body" when he was inside Bashir. Maybe he was noting Bashir's genetically enhanced abilities (without even really knowing that they were enhanced because he'd never been in a normal human body).

    In "Move Along Home", I wonder what Bashir was actually going screaming in the game when Sisko, Kira, and Dax found him. Maybe his genetic enhancements allowed him to determine that he was actually in an artificial construct (which he couldn't share with his shipmates because he couldn't explain how he knew) and he was trying a technique to get himself out of the mental construct. He does say that he was "trying to wake himself up", which sounds like a ridiculous young man to the others, but may have been as truthful as he could let on at the time.

    In "Armageddon Game", I wonder just how much Bashir actually knows about the subspace transceiver that he's not letting on the O'Brien. Ultimately it doesn't matter, however, because it's not repairable anyway.

    Probably the Julian Bashir seen in all the mirror universe episodes was not genetically enhanced. I'm sure his parents, as slaves of the Alliance, couldn't afford the genetic enhancements that the regular universe parents could. Maybe that's why mirror Bashir seems so much stupider and mad at world. If you want to know how Jules Bashir would have turned out without the enhancements, you need look no further than mirror Bashir.

    Perhaps Bashir's enhanced status was part of what enabled him to survive as a prisoner of the Dominion for over a month, as revealed in "In Purgatory's Shadow" and "By Inferno's Light".

    Most of the episode "Distant Voices" plays out in Bashir's genetically enhanced mind. Perhaps the only reason Bashir was able to defeat Altovar's attack was because Bashir was enhanced. (I don't think a human NOT genetically enhanced could've or would've survived that Lethean's telepathic attack.) It's interesting how even though Altovar is inside Bashir's mind, he still doesn't fully understand Bashir's status as a genetically enhanced man in hiding. (This is similar to when Rao Vantika was inside Bashir's head in "The Passenger".) Altovar confronts Bashir about his past failures – the way he quit tennis to become a doctor because his parents would not approve, the way he intentionally missed a question so he would be second rather than first in his class because of the pressure. What was it Bashir's parents didn't approve about tennis? Did they not want Julian to squander the gifts that they presumably paid good hard-earned curency for? Or were they worried that the life of a super-star tennis play would make it more likely that his genetically engineered status would be found out? And, as has been previously discussed, Bashir probably threw that fiber/nerve question not just to avoid the pressure of being valedictorian, but the pressure of possibly be found out as enhanced (and therefore a bit of a cheat).

    There was a little clue in the episode "HomeFront" about Bashir's past. Odo offered to check on Bashir's family on Earth and Bashir quickly put the idea to rest. Bashir didn't want to associate with his parents.

    There's some interesting scenes in "Rivals" if you know Bashir's actual racketball skills are much higher than he normally let's on. First, Bashir has to pretend to be "normal" fit young guy, who can easily beat the older O'Brien, and then naturally gloat about it. Then, later in the episode, as the "luck game" starts acting on him, he finds himself loosing the game, even when he tries. How can this be? he may be asking himself; I'm much better than O'Brien, heck, I'm even much better than O'Brien thinks I am. Because I normally have to bring down my game so that no one recognizes my enhanced abilities.

    But the scene I find the most interesting and revealing about genetically-enhanced Bashir in "Rivals" is not the beginning, when Bashir is winning, nor the end, when he's loosing because of the "luck game", it's in the middle, when Bashir "throws" the match to O'Brien because he feels bad for him. Remember, genetically enhanced Bashir is always "taking it easy" on those people he plays games with. He has to in order to not let on to people the fact that he has exceptional genetically engineered abilities. And he has also gotten very good at doing so in such a way that it appears natural, not like he's trying to loose. It has to appear as if he's trying to win, even though he's not really doing his genetically-engineered best. In fact, he often chooses to throw in some gloating and pride, maybe because he's just young and feels like gloating, but maybe because he's trying to throw others off the scent of thinking he's actually capable of doing even more than he's showing (and gloating about). But in the match he's trying to "throw" to O'Brien there is another interesting dynamic. He now has to pretend to have even less skill than he normally shows, which is already less than his real skill level. And you know that Bashir could have done so in a convincing way. He's had a lot of practice at throwing games in a convincing way. (Unless he has gotten SO use to his new "normal" level that this further-reduced level feels weird to him.) Yet in the episode, Bashir acts so obvious when he "throws" the game with O'Brien. When he's throwing a game, which he's probably done many times, he does so in a very obvious way. Was this just because he really didn't want to bring his game down so far? Or was he acting so poorly so that others couldn't possibly question that his normal level of play wasn't also faked? I'm not arguing one way or the other. I just think it's an interesting question to think about.

    The absolute most interesting episode to rewatch knowing about Bashir's genetic enhancements, in my opinion, is "Our Man Bashir". Bashir, who leaves a real life as a multi-faceted man with secrets that he hides from everyone, wishes to escape into a place where he can really be himself and use his abilities to their fullest potential. Secret agent man program seems perfect. Interacting with a lot of different people using different personas (which allows him to hone his conversational skills, which are really a lot better than he lets on), high-speed mental calculations (with the right story), card counting, sharpshooting using his high hand-eye-coordination. So he sets up some free time to be with himself. Sets the program difficulty up really high so it's challenging. (Most people would set the program so that they win the card game without trying, but Bashir had it set up so that he had to card count a 5 deck set to do it, just to challenge himself, etc.) Then Garak shows up and Bashir has a dilemma. No problem, he thinks, I just get rid of Garak or secretly lower the difficulty level so that he doesn't see me doing these amazing things and getting too suspicious. But then the transporter/computer problems takes both of those choices away from him. So he's stuck having to continue with the program set at a risky high difficulty level to save his friends' lives, all why hiding his abilities from Garak . . . all while keeping Garak off-balance enough to not notice. It plays out really well. And Bashir comes across even more impressive when you view the episode this way. Especially at the end, when Julian shoots at Garak and it seems like Bashir was willing to shoot him, but the bullet didn't hit. In hindsight its obvious he intentionally missed as a warning and played it off like he meant to actually hit Garak (which, given his enhanced abilities, would have been easy).
     
  6. datalogan

    datalogan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Remember the genetic engineering that was happening on Darwin Station in the TNG episode “Unnatural Selection”?* Maybe that was actual legal scientific research into genetic engineering.* Remember, just because it’s illegal for the average citizen in the Federation to perform eugenics, that does not mean that government-sanctioned scientists with Starfleet oversight couldn’t be allowed to experiment in a controlled location.* (I wonder whatever happen to those genetically engineered kids.)
     
  7. Paper Moon

    Paper Moon Commander Red Shirt

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    ^^ This. All of it. (Well, less so the Darwin Station stuff, but everything before it.) Absolutely and entirely.

    This is what I love about the TrekBBS: conversing with people who think about this stuff as much as I do (and clearly enjoy doing so, as well). :cool:
     
  8. Spock/Uhura Fan

    Spock/Uhura Fan Captain Captain

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    I agree with this. I also think that's why he became a doctor. He said his parents had a good doctor do his genetic engineering, but others weren't so lucky. That makes me think of the "rejects" in Statistical Probabilities. He knew that could have easily been him, and he wanted to be the doctor that saved people. It would have been interesting to see him do some intergalactic "doctors without borders" work, where every person/being he saved was one less person that could be harmed by a hack. That would have been good. I honestly only see his revelation as a good thing for the character.

    I read somewhere once that Siddig said that he didn't like that twist in his storyline. I wonder why? It really helped his character, at least to me it did. The section 31 stuff was just great. Sisko actually had him being a spy with that one. No holosuite required. :)
     
  9. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    I just don't think he liked how it was suddenly sprung on him out of the blue, nor how they tried to turn Bashir into a human computer.
     
  10. Spock/Uhura Fan

    Spock/Uhura Fan Captain Captain

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    Oh. I never thought of him as a human computer, but I guess for the actor it might have seemed that way. He didn't seem to play the character too differently afterward, so I wouldn't have though it would make much of a difference. Okay.
     
  11. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There were a few episodes where they tried that--but thankfully they abandoned it.
     
  12. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A Simple Investigation (***½)

    What is love? Baby, don't hurt me. Don't hurt me, no more.

    [yt]v=CT8t_1JXWn8[/yt]



    [​IMG]

    This episode is probably the best example of why making Odo a Changeling again was premature, because this story would have been better if he had been humanoid. Odo having his first sexual relationship as a solid would have made it more meaningful, and it's probably an experience that he couldn't fully appreciate as a Changeling for various biological reasons. It also makes more sense from a character perspective for him to be exploring new areas of his life as a solid rather than as a Changeling. There would be time for Odo to explore romantic relationships later in the series, but not getting involved in such a situation as a solid leaves me feeling that the writers missed out on something important in their rush to return things to normal.

    There are other reasons why I wish Odo had been a humanoid for this episode, because the fact that he is a Changeling caused me to think certain things that I never wanted to think. Odo presumably morphed up a reasonably accurate (if unusually smooth) nude male body. Did he spend hours on the internet researching what naked males look like, or does his knowledge come purely from those sexy crime novels he reads? Odo's clothes are a part of himself, so when Arissa inevitably attempted to lift his shirt off, what exactly happened? Did Odo just morph his clothes off? Odo doesn't have natural saliva, so when Arissa kissed him, did he just have an exceptionally dry mouth, or did he morph up some fake saliva, which then went into her mouth and returned to its gelatinous state? All these thoughts kept distracting me from the story, that wouldn't have happened if Odo was a solid.

    As a love story, it's definitely one of the stronger ones Trek has done, the characters and story are more interesting than what we usually get. It would have been nice if the plot had tied into some grander narrative about the Orion Syndicate, but as an organisation they're never been particularly well thought-out, which is unfortunate. There's still the issue of Odo and Arissa falling in love over the course of two or three days, but it's less of a problem than normal. Bit of a dick move at the end to reveal that Arissa is married, it's one of the more tragic reset buttons, but it's still a reset button.

    Form of... a sex machine: 30
     
  13. datalogan

    datalogan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    How will this affect any feelings Odo has for Kira? I mean, it's hard enough for Odo to admit he has romantic feelings for anyone. But he finally did so with for Kira (although he still hasn't told HER). You know how first loves are; certainly Odo felt it was special, one-of-a-kind, would last forever. And all that's still probably true, but it does certainly change things when you have your second love, when you admit that there's more than one person who can get your juices flowing (or whatever the equivalent is for changelings). And boy, was Odo moved; he allowed Arissa to get away with things he would never allow Kira to get away with, no mater how much he loves her. But maybe that's because Arissa was so much more vulnerable/needy than Kira. Or maybe it was because Arissa was literally programmed to be someone he would help. Her personality was, after all, made-up and programmed by someone. Funny that a man that didn't want to play with a fake holosuite girl ended up playing with a different kind of fake girl. (I won't get into the legal ramifications of over-writing someone's memories and personality and how someone was killed in those actions.)

    You think maybe this will soften Odo some. Make him realize there's probably someone else out there for him. I would think it would make his connection with and interest in Kira just a little bit less significant, less of a driver in his life. Hey, does that mean he'll be more likely to leave DS9 and return to the Great Link or something, since Kira was what was keeping him here?

    What I did like about the episode was the scenes in the holosuite and the exploration of the Orion Syndicate criminals. But I just generally didn't find the story very believable. Odo seemed so out of character.
     
  14. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    I agree that this is one of the stronger romance episodes, to the extent that I think it's dignified enough to "frown at the clown" and demand a proper introduction ;). Which is to say, despite demonstrating the usual implausibilities of romance-of-the-week, there's enough of a point to this one to elevate it out of the RomanceTrek box. Perhaps it's because Odo is new to sexual relationships, and a person's first such experience carries with it the sense of experimentation that lets us overlook the need for a partnership to develop at a sensible pace. It's more an "Odo gains life experience" plot than a "character suddenly falls in love" piece, which makes it more palatable. Perhaps too it's because the underworld/intelligence theme brings to mind genres in which sudden sexual liaisons seem less out of place; there's a actual backdrop to the relationship, even if it is a rather cliched one.

    I agree entirely that this episode would've been more effective if Odo were still a solid, but I'm perfectly happy with what we got. Arissa's final line is great, I must say, and I'm not sure I "got it" the first time. "I'll never forget you" sounds like the usual fare from romance-of-the-week, a somewhat hokey attempt to demonstrate that this character we'll never see again was a True Love, but considering what Arissa does for a living, it's both tragically poignant and darkly amusing. It also manages, then, to carry a (probably unintentional) barb that challenges the notion of meaningful, never-to-be-regretted-or-forgotten whirlwind romances. It's a truly DS9 sort of RomanceTrek.
     
  15. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There are more problems to, did Odo form a penis just for Arissa, does Arissa know he has no shaft or does she want to explore regardless? This episode should be of lower score for it stoops so low just for Odo to bag some woman of his dreams for a week or so.

    And I thought Odo had the crazies for Nerys... Seriously Odo spurned Lwaxana's affections and that cute Bajoran woman during the last episode of season 4 so it's obvious Kira is da ONE. This episode would have been so much more better and so much less clichéd and shallow if Odo spurned Arissa's advances or even hit himself with a painstick as he is torn between two women but picks neither...

    It just feels out of character, Odo is shy around women who are interested in him so that's another reason why this episode is so naff. It seemed to me that the writers HAD to have Odo have sex with any old woman just for the sake of it, regardless of cheesiness, Odo's character or even a good story.

    :angryrazz: :angryrazz: :angryrazz: to the writers.
     
  16. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In a lot of ways this is Odo's equivilent of a teenage romance experiment. Sure he has it for Kira, but she's involved with another guy and he's finally just worked up the courage to make ANY kind of move, even if it's with girl #2.

    As for his shapeshifter anatomy? I'd think from the female's point of view a partner who can alter at will the size, shape and texture of certain portions of his body would have some sort of appeal. Though if Odo only gets off from turning into Jello, I'm not really sure what he's getting out of it.
     
  17. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    basking in the warmth of the Fire Caves
    You stopped at the saliva because you wanted to keep the review PG-13? ;)

    These are all very good questions that the show does its best to ignore. It's too bad that the show never fully explored the issues related to the nature of the Changelings, and treated them as humanoids way too often.

    I've wondered about this, too. How is Odo able to enjoy "solids" sex, if he is at all? And I dunno, from my point of view I'd have a problem knowing my partner can't feel any pleasure doing sex.

    I'm so behind with this thread, I don't know if I'll ever get to catch up before TheGodBen finishes his rewatch, so I've just decided to tune in at this point.

    BTW, since I don't want to open another thread that will die soon, I need to share with you guys this disturbing news: my best friend has finally seen all the Trek shows except ENT, and her favorite is... Voyager! :cardie: She thinks it's great, and that the characters have great development (granted, she cites Torres, Paris and Seven, who do have some), she loves Janeway, and even thinks that Chakotay is wonderful with his spirituality and calmness. Her favorite character is B'Elanna Torres and she says she relates to her a lot and that she's a lot like her, which makes me feel awkward since I was always lukewarm to B'Elanna. :shrug:
     
  18. DS9 Gal AZ

    DS9 Gal AZ Captain Captain

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    Since changelings clearly seem to experience the sensations of touch, I'm assuming that, if they were skilled enough and chose to do so, they could morph the approrpriate sex organ that would allow them to experience the corresponding humanoid sensations of sexual pleasure.

    Though that theory kind of falls through if I think about too much, because if they can do that, why couldn't they morph up tastes buds or even a digestive system ...

    I can kind of see why the writers didn't want to try and explain it.
     
  19. Spock/Uhura Fan

    Spock/Uhura Fan Captain Captain

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    Where It's At.
    I really liked this episode. As for the "penis" issue, I always imagined that he didn't have a problem forming one because he had been human and knew what his own penis was like at that time. It would have nice to get more on the Orion Syndicate, but they seemed to be very secretive and good at what they did. Weren't they also mentioned in The Ascent? I got the impression that you didn't find them, they found you...

    I think finding out that Arissa was married worked just fine when you factor in Kira and Odo happening eventually. Vedek Bareil dying was also sad, but it ended up setting Kira free for Odo as well. His death was more pertinent to different story arcs, but Arissa's marriage and the fact that the woman Odo had feelings for didn't exist worked well for their purpose to me. This is a great episode. :)
     
  20. Spock/Uhura Fan

    Spock/Uhura Fan Captain Captain

    Joined:
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    Where It's At.
    Well, the big wig Changlings were able to morph up taste buds and a digestive system for Odo when they punished him with becoming locked in as human. So, anything's possible, I guess. Odo wasn't the best at shifting, either, although he was good. There were other Changelings that could take on a human form perfectly when he was still having trouble with faces.
     

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