TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    Damn you all! :devil:

    (I'm only up to four as this weekend is mega busy. Just wait till I'm looking to procrastinate...)
     
  2. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Don't worry about it, if the situation was reversed I'd laugh at you. :p

    Sadly, TNG Recut ends at episode 200 (All Bad Things), and it manages to be surprisingly emotional considering it was a series about genocidal, deviant cowards. :weep:


    The Darkness and the Light (****)

    I think I have it figured out. In this episode, Sisko wears his uniform and commbadge wrong, then correctly, then wrong, then correctly. Most people think that this was a wardrobe malfunction, but it's not, it's actually a brilliant move by Avery Brooks that furthers the development of his character. See, on the days when Sisko dresses himself he gets it wrong, but on the days when Kassidy dresses him she gets it right. Sisko's flipping between wearing his uniform right and wearing it wrong was Avery Brooks' way of letting the audience know that he and Kassidy have started sleeping together again, and for the rest of the series Sisko is getting some action regularly. It's really quite brilliant.

    This episode is all about the confrontation between Kira and Prin. Stylistically, it's wonderful, the pregnant woman being tortured by the disfigured man with great use of light and shadow. And it deals with some very heavy issues with no easy answers to them, just differing points of view. I know that there's some controversy about Kira's claim in that scene that there were no innocent Cardassians on Bajor, because episodes like Duet had given her a new perspective on such issues, but I completely buy that in that moment she believed what she said. Some part of Kira does believe that, she couldn't have lived through the occupation without some of those dark thoughts, but in normal circumstances her ability to reason will overrule such thinking. But now she's pregnant, her back hurts, people have been treating her as a delicate specimen for months, and some crazy guy has been murdering her oldest friends. So yeah, I can buy that she doesn't have time for reason or feel-good peacenik sentiments in that moment, she just wants to hurt and kill the guy that has her trapped in a chair.

    My main issue with the episode is that Prin is a butler that has somehow become a master assassin whose skills rival those of Garak. I can't see Stevens from The Remains of the Day becoming such an expert killer even if half his face was blown off, it's a fairly big leap. Prin manages to plant a micro-explosive on a Vedek without him knowing, place a transport inhibitor on a woman in such a way that advanced Federation technology couldn't detect it, and blow up a section of one of the most guarded strategic space stations in the galaxy. Where did he learn all this stuff, the Cardassian Open University? Actually, knowing Cardassians, that's not as absurd as it first sounds...
     
  3. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Not all the time they were deviants. I think it was recut 61 where Picard first expressed human emotions blubbering away over the fate of this robot character while watching some video! It is totally OTT!

    I agree with your assessment TheGodBen about Kira telling Prim all Cardassians were 'guilty' in the occupation. I mean she is totally pissed off and in those kind of situations people say some very ugly things. The way I see it there is a monster inside of Kira, it came out many times during the occupation with all the people she killed and her passionate hatred of Cardassians. You push Kira far enough and she can become as bad and as ruthless as Prim when searching for everyone who slighted and hurt her.

    But hell your right about Prim, if a common shmuck like him can learn such deadly assassination and terrorist skills, be scared. Be VERY scared!!!

    Still this episode came off a bit OTT with a plot as plausible as something like fricking Die Hard or Face Off. At least Duet came off as more plausible...
     
  4. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    A bit more food for thought:

    Considering the Cardassians seem to be expert cosmetic surgeons, why didn't Prim just get facial reconstruction? Was he so embittered by the ordeal that he left it as a reminder and motivation?

    Yeah, he be messed up.
     
  5. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That or only the rich can afford such treatments?
     
  6. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    It does seem rather odd that a common guy like Prin could do all these things; it really makes me wonder why the people of the Federation aren't completely paranoid and why the Dominion never bother trying to just use any of these methods to assassinate the DS9 crew. For that reason it would've been better if Prin had been an Obsidian Order member, but that would of course not have worked.

    Aside from all the fridge logic, it was a good, scary episode. A very untrekkian one too, between the serial killer hunt and the confrontation at the end.
     
  7. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    I agree. People are complex and multi-faceted, and good characters are therefore complex and multi-faceted as well. I think we all agree that Kira Nerys is a good character. :) In my opinion, personal growth rarely involves cutting anything loose completely, because that's not growth, merely change, and people can't let go of themselves quite that easily. Indeed, I'm not sure it would be healthy. Kira hasn't become a new person over the course of her time on DS9; instead she's grown and become ever more complex. Her outlook on Cardassia, the occupation, her own role in fighting it; these have changed; that doesn't mean she's incapable of accessing her former, more cleanly black-and-white perspectives, merely that she's learnt enough to be wary of them and keep them from dominating her outlook, at least most of the time. But when she's under the stress she is here, she can revert, and that doesn't contradict or invalidate episodes like Duet. It just shows that for all Kira is in the present, she, like anyone else, is partly defined by her past. She learned as a youth to keep things simple and clear-cut, as a means of surviving and achieving the goals of the Resistance. Just because she often seeks to put aside those lessons and turn the direction of her life around now that she has the chance (her scene with Opaka in season one being a great example), it doesn't mean she's "unlearnt" them. And it doesn't mean that when she's had a very bad day due to someone who hasn't been at all succssesful in escaping the ghosts of the occupation that she'll necessarily have the patience to reason and reflect.
     
  8. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Haha, forgot what number it was, as I haven't watched em in awhile, but the most hilarious moment is when Picard kills Spot, then Data replicates a new cat! :lol:
     
  9. datalogan

    datalogan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I think Kira's conviction definitely comes across in "The Darkness and the Light". The scene with her beating up 3 guys on her way to the bomb site comes to mind, but the scene that I really liked was:

    Odo has a list of possible suspects, but doesn't want to let her see it, afraid of what she'd do with the info. So, Kira pretends to be tired, let's Odo walk out of the room, them beams to his office and gets the list and then leaves the station -- all before Odo even gets back to his office. Brilliant!

    Still, she was probably showing too much conviction. I mean, do you really want to go after a dangerous killer while pregnant. And I'm not talking about the handicap it gives you in any fighting you have to do. I'm talking about the danger you are putting that unborn kid in. Do you think she still would have been so gun-ho if that was her own kid, versus just a baby she's carrying?

    While I generally like Kira, this may actually be the episode where I like her the least. Because she wasn't concerned about the "rule of law". If that was the case she would have just told Odo who to go after versus going herself. She wanted revenge by her own hands. And she was willing to endanger the baby (as well as disobeying orders, etc) to get it. She doesn't really come across in a good light.

    Some may argue, as they did her, that Kira still maintains her angrier, younger self and will revert to that from time-to-time. I guess that's true of all of us, and it does make her more real. But I would have hoped she could have been better than that. I like my heroes to be more heroic.

    Loved the little continuity nod with Furel and Lupaza showing up again, even if it was just to die.

    Great seeing Nog continuing to do well in his chosen job as a Starfleet officer, and especially because he's using his unique Ferengi skill-set to do so. Pretty good for a guy that couldn't read 4 years ago.
     
  10. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's recut 130; How the Mighty Have Fallen.

    Makes you wonder why Data got so pissed off in the first place if he could replicate Spot that easily!
     
  11. Jeff O'Connor

    Jeff O'Connor Commodore Commodore

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    I really dig "The Darkness and the Light". Above all else, when I think of the episode I think of its cinematography. That happens much more often with DS9 than the other shows; DS9 had some extraordinary directors and cinematographers.

    The use of light and shadow, the sometimes-mystifying closeups, the whole package. Its mise-en-scene is terrific.
     
  12. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    I enjoyed seeing Kira's old friends again, even if it ended badly for them. It was more solid continuity from the writers, and it made Kira's upset all the more real as we already knew her history with them.

    It's an episode I can really get behind, as it's the first time since Nana Visitor's pregnancy that Kira had a meaty story.
     
  13. Jeff O'Connor

    Jeff O'Connor Commodore Commodore

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    Bringing back those two actors -- Kira's friends -- was a masterstroke I'm hesitant to believe the creators of the other series would have seen as much point behind. Of course, it could have just been a matter of convenience, as these things often are.

    "Hey, we need to cast for this character, Kira's friend."

    "She already has friends."

    "Well, yeah."

    "Just get one of them."

    "We'd need contact info for that. An audition would be easier."

    "No. I have the numbers for those two actors from a previous episode right here."

    "Well, hell. That saves time. We'll make it two of them, then, and we'll make it them."

    Regardless of what happened, it helps tremendously in selling the story. The casual viewer is given enough information to feel something. The regular viewer will go, "oh hell, it's them. They wouldn't... oh, snap, they did."
     
  14. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Picard was watching the movie Short Circuit, which I believe was a reference to this episode of gazorra's TNG edits. GeneralGrin's Recut series was heavily influenced by gazorra; Picard's singing causing fights to break out, Data's obscene unicorn paintings, and the insane amount of gay sex taking place on the Enterprise all came from gazorra.


    Anyway, sorry about the delay, I keep finding myself in arguments in other areas of the board. :alienblush:

    The Begotten (***)

    Once again, another difficult episode to rate here. On the one hand, it's a great character-piece for Odo, a chance for him to revisit his past and his feelings about Dr Mora. On the other hand, Odo regaining his shape-shifting ability closes the door on a chapter for his character that wasn't nearly explored enough. That aspect of the story had a sub-plot in Apocalypse Rising, played a big role in The Ascent, had a handful of other scenes throughout the season, and that's it. It seems to me that so much more could have been done there, that there was still more to explore, but it's dropped so that the show can return to the original status quo. The sad thing is that it wasn't necessary, Odo didn't need to regain his powers at this point in the series, and there were better opportunities for that later.

    Otherwise, this is a great episode for Odo. In some ways it is going over old ground that was already addressed back in The Alternate, but where that episode skimmed the subject and focused instead on a monster-of-the-week story, The Begotten delves into the subject in a much more satisfying way. It's a little disappointing that the episode ends with the baby Changeling dying in something of a reset button, but it makes for a nice bittersweet ending. And in some ways, that Changeling lives on inside Odo... even though it doesn't change him in the slightest and he never mentions it again.

    Then there's the b-plot where Kira gives birth. I suppose this is a necessary evil of sorts, Kira has to give birth to end that story-arc, and it would be a cop-out to not do it on-screen, but the whole thing is a little goofy and gets in the way of the much more interesting a-plot. Once again, it has a nice bittersweet ending, and it's a pity that the show didn't explore the loss Kira feels as a surrogate mother in later episodes, but it gives us a nice moment where Odo and Kira get to reflect on their experiences of losing a child that wasn't really theirs.

    Form of... a Tarkalean hawk: 29
     
  15. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    Well, from this moment on Odo lets his emotions dictate his actions a lot more, which you can consider the baby changeling's influence, if you feel inclined to do such things. A Simple Investigation is not long after this, and after that there's the Occupation Arc and then his romance with Kira.

    Anyway, I like The Begotten more than you and would probably have given it four stars. Both Odo's relationship with dr. Mora and the baby changeling were very well done and touching, and René Auberjonois' acting really sold the fact that he wasn't just talking to a glass of drink. The Kira story was okay, I guess, just a few silly gags and Shakaar being nothing but Kira's shallow love interest, I guess. The scene at the end was a nice touch.
     
  16. Paper Moon

    Paper Moon Commander Red Shirt

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    I give this plot more credit than you. We got to see an interesting alternate take on childbirth than what is typical in mainstream America. We got to see Keiko react with aplomb to the situation while Miles fidgets again, we get to see an interesting dynamic between Miles and Shakaar (whom I really disliked in this episode; really, what business does he have being there?), and it parallels nicely with the Odo plot. It's also nice to see Bajoran tradition(-al medicine?) working harmoniously with modern Federation medicine.
     
  17. Jeff O'Connor

    Jeff O'Connor Commodore Commodore

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    They finally put Shakaar on the screen again and there's really not a whole lot going on with him. Irks me a little, as does the obviousness of how much more could have been done with the Odo-as-a-solid story.

    Despite all that, I'd have probably gone with three-and-a-half stars for this one. As apenpaap has mentioned, Auberjonois' acting is spectacular here, and his relationship with Dr. Mora is also more interesting, I think, than with the second-season outing.
     
  18. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Actually, that's the score I was going to go with, but I deducted a star for Odo regaining his powers so early. I probably should have made that clear in the review.
     
  19. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    Ah, okay. ;)

    I agree with you in that more could have been done with Odo not having his mad skillz. However, this episode (or at least his story) was well done, and I loved the moment where the he finds out he's normal again. It's hard not to feel happy for him.

    Having Dr. Mora back was, again, good for continuity. A bit like seeing Kira's resistence friends in the last episode. Seeing Odo deal with the issues he'd had as Mora's test subject was far more satisfying than the weird episode where he becomes a monster.

    The part where Odo and Kira share their feelings was very poignant, and helped to make up for the silly birthing scenes.
     
  20. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Shakaar did have the great line of "Next time you have a baby leave my girlfriend out of it."

    Where else can you say that with a straight face? :p