TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Jeff O'Connor

    Jeff O'Connor Commodore Commodore

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    Haha, yes, TGB. Been busy with college and Mass Effect 3 and Civilization V. Go figure that I happen upon a comparison between those games and drugs. Truly, I've embarked upon a standard college experience.

    Up to the third season now. Happy to see you reviewing another episode on this page! Can't wait to be caught up.
     
  2. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well there's morality for you. Really Garak isn't so much an evil person as a person who lacks any morals whatsoever. Evil people usually know what they're doing is wrong on some level, even if they try and justify it. Dukat's a good example of this for example. Good, evil, right, wrong, these are just labels others use to define themselves and often enough limit themselves, to Garak.

    Garak had the same outlook when he was in power and when he was in exile, and even in this episode when he's in the proverbial slave pens. One side had the power and used it. That was just the way it worked. He would apply that power ruthlessly if need be when he had it. Likewise he expected the people who had it in this episode to apply it equally ruthlessly.

    Really the only two people Garak seemed to break this mindset over were Tain and Mila. His parents, and what a screwed up family that was. As for Garak deserving to suffer? Well I'm sure there are varying opinions on that. I will say one of Star Trek's themes was, that humanity was supposed to be beyond such base desires.
     
  3. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not Deep Space Nine's themes. DS9 can be summed up by Quark's statement in AR-558, that once you take away humanity's creature comforts, they are really just as base as anybody else.
     
  4. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    To true, to true...

    A recovering turn-based game player and urban simulator addict...

    That is probably my favorite lines in all of DS9 but didn't Quark also say something about long periods of stress, pressure and lack of sleep as well?
     
  5. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Man, good thing I never gave Minecraft a try.:crazy:

    (just noticed you started the Minecraft thread in Gaming as well ...the theory sustains!)
     
  6. Jeff O'Connor

    Jeff O'Connor Commodore Commodore

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    Phew. All. Caught. Up.

    TheGodBen, now that I'm here, you really ought to get into a really rad groove again and post lots of reviews! There is a 70% chance at least that I will stick around and talk about the episodes.

    I hope "Profit and Lace" doesn't cause another month-long boozing...!
     
  7. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'll try not to take so long for the next episode, I actually watched Things Past about 2 or 3 weeks ago and I just didn't get around to posting my thoughts on it as I'm an expert procrastinator.

    You should, it's fun. I built and live in this village. No monsters will get me in my fortress, I tell you what!

    [​IMG]

    Also, the Steam summer sale is just around the corner, you might be able to get Civ V for less than $10. You'd like it, it has hexagons. :devil:
     
  8. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    Personally, I thought Civ V was pretty meh. Now, if you really want the best drug the gaming world has to offer, get Civ IV. :p
     
  9. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I love the 1-unit-per-tile rule too much, I can't go back to those horrendously boring stacks of doom. The vanilla game certainly had its issues though, but the new expansion has rectified most of them.
     
  10. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah, I fear its time-sink abilities, especially when my current projects are uber-time-sinks already. Plus, the scale of the whole thing renders the mind to boggles: Scroll up a little ways...
     
  11. Jeff O'Connor

    Jeff O'Connor Commodore Commodore

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    I can second what TGB is sellin'. Of Gods and Kings is a-freakin'-mazin'.
     
  12. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    While a Minecraft world can technically be up to 8 times the surface area of the Earth, nobody actually has a world that big, you'd run out of disk space before even getting close. :lol: In general, I've only explored around 2-4km from my spawn in each direction in my SP world. On Robert Maxwell's server, which I infrequently (:alienblush:) play on, people have explored maybe 10-20km out.

    There is one guy that's doing a Youtube series where he's attempting to walk all the way to the edge of the map. He has been doing it for about a year now and, extrapolating from the progress he has made in that time, it will probably take him about 20 more to reach it. Here's a map of his progress.
     
  13. datalogan

    datalogan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I really enjoyed "Things Past". Sure, the premise of how the characters got into and out of their predicament was pretty ridiculous. But so was it in "Trials and Tribble-ations". Sometimes you just have to look past the set-up to the greatness in the rest of the episode. (Plus, see below for possible explanation.)

    "Things Past" is one of those episodes best watched upon repeat viewings. The first time through you are so wrapped up as a viewer in the whole storyline of "how did we get here; who are we; how do we get back home?" that you are not able to fully appreciate the other (better) aspects of the story. And it's especially frustrating when the storyline of "how did we get here" turns out to be so stupid. I can see how one might be a little ticked off. You're like "I just invested 40 minutes into this puzzle and it turns out it was all just a dream? What a gyp."

    This episode is really all about Odo's guilt. About how not even Odo escaped the horrors of the Occupation without getting blood on his hands. On repeat viewings you can really focus on Odo's reaction to the situation. He instantly knows what is going on and when and where the crew are. He recognizes the situation because he was just thinking about it in the runabout, and he feels his own guilt over the way things will go. Rene Auberjonois does his usual great job as Odo, fully portraying the sorrow and grief and restrained anger at himself and his embarrassment at having to share this mistake with others. And Kurtwood Smith does a great job portraying the younger, more sure of himself, Odo (even though he appears to look like Thrax).

    Through the Thrax version of Odo, we see how Odo ran things during the Occupation. Including that great scene between Thrax (who is really Odo) and Quark. Interesting to see how those 2 guys interacted only a years after their first meeting (which we saw back in 2nd season episode "Necessary Evil"). This is Odo all the way; it just looks like Thrax because Odo's subconscious was trying to cover up his guilt.

    The scene at the end of the episode between Kira and Odo plays an interesting parallel to the scene at the end of "Necessary Evil", but with the roles reversed. In "Necessary Evil" it was Odo scolding Kira for not telling him earlier that she had killed someone. Now it's Kira scolding Odo for not telling her earlier of his mistake here. Important point for the relationship between these two characters.

    One possible positive thing to get out of the ridiculous "you all had a joint dream very much like the Great Link": doesn't the fact that Odo still has a morphogenic matrix suggests that he's not completely humanoid and may eventually be able to turn back into his old shape-shifter self (which happens just episodes later)? Plus, it allowed them to basically time travel without having to time travel, as TheGodBen pointed out.

    OK, here's something to consider:
    It's possible that Bashir has been replaced by a changeling at this point.

    As Odo's body was calling out for other changelings to link with, perhaps the undercover Bashir changeling (UBC) could have linked with Odo (secretly, of course, without the other medical staff or Worf finding out) and guided the vision that Odo, Garak, Dax, and Sisko were living through. In fact, maybe it was the UBC that caused the link in the first place. Makes more sense than some random ion storm. But what would the Founders hope to gain by putting Odo through that vision of his past? Perhaps they just wanted to make Odo feel bad. Or maybe they wanted him to be reminded of the bad parts of living with the solids as a way of getting him to return to the Great Link. Or, maybe, they were just looking for a way to drive a stake between Odo and Kira. They want to spoil Odo's relationship with Kira (again so he'll be more motivated to return to the Great Link), and what better way to do that than to make Kira loose her trust in Odo?
     
  14. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri is an even stronger drug... Planet awaits...

    Yeah I to thought Civ V was a little underwhelming, the hex tiles are great but I think the one unit per tile (or two if you have both a combat and non-combat unit together) becomes a bit impeding when you have a whole continent full of units! This has happened to me in the later stages of the game.

    I also feel Civ IV gave a greater sense of change through the eras, plus the music was amazing.
     
  15. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Ascent (***½)

    I enjoy this episode, always have, but this is the episode that denied us what could have been one of the most unusual episodes of DS9 ever, the one where Odo and Quark are stuck in a room together and don't do anything. I like those kinds of episodes, it's the reason why I liked Enterprise's Shuttlepod One even with all its flaws. My favourite part of this episode was the banter between Odo and Quark early in the episode, before they crashed on the planet, it's just enjoyable to watch those two characters interact and how much they intentionally and unintentionally annoy one another. Once the explosion happens and they crash on the mountain planet, the show loses its light-hearted charm, and even though we still get some good banter between the two characters the nature of their situation is more serious.

    As a survival story, it's okay. A bit predicable, nothing unexpected really happens, even the fight where Odo breaks his leg and Quark must save the day comes right out of Drama Writing 101. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it works because Odo and Quark have a dynamic that make it work. It's a perfectly serviceable story that is made good by two great characters. It's also one of the few episodes this season that actually explores Odo's temporary solidity, which is something that most episodes since the season opener have glossed over or completely ignored altogether.

    The b-story isn't up to the same standard as the a-story, mainly because the resolution is rushed to the point of almost being inexplicable. Jake and Nog have grown apart and have such wildly differing priorities now that they can't stand to live together, until the very end when the two characters go from barely being able to tolerate one another to being best friends again in a very brief scene. The resolution implies that all the previous scenes either didn't happen or didn't matter, it's a very lazy reset-button ending. It's nice to have Nog back on the station though.


    Then you've been wasting production and gold that you should have been using to further develop your civilization but which you instead used to support a massive standing army that you'll never need. You must have been playing as America. ;) You need to get out of the Civ IV mindset that you require a massive army, because in Civ V you don't. A relatively small, modern, well-balanced army that you use tactically will be enough to conquer a rival civ.

    But yes, they should make an Alpha Centauri II, if only EA didn't hold the rights to that franchise. :(
     
  16. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    I greatly enjoyed The Ascent too. Ohdough and Quark always make for great scenes together, and this episode was no exception. Though the episode where they just wait for the Defiant would probably have been even greater.
     
  17. Jeff O'Connor

    Jeff O'Connor Commodore Commodore

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    Man, what was up with that Jake/Nog b-story resolution? When I rewatched the series two years ago, I was really scratching my head at that one. I forgot about it altogether since, and every time I've seen this episode mentioned I've just immediately thought of the a-story. Good reason, I suppose. But yes, it's great to see Nog back on the station, at least. <3

    You hit the nail on the head with your comment about Drama Writing 101, but that it still works because these characters have such chemistry. Whenever I've watched The Ascent since becoming a so-called adult, I've always kinda expected a little more out of the plotline briefly, but then relaxed and said, "oh, who cares? It's an Odo/Quark survival story. It's good."
     
  18. datalogan

    datalogan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Quark and Odo actually have a grudging respect for each other, even friendship of a kind. This has been seen many times before and after, but this was the one and only time their relationship took to the forefront of the episode. Really, I think their relationship works better in all those other episodes, where it's just a side plot, and less so here, where it's the focus. This episode was just too formulaic and predictable.

    Seems like Odo's getting tired of his humanoid body. He's so much more irritable in this episode than normal. I think he's moved beyond his initial infatuation with the body, like ingestion. Maybe what he's really pissed off about is realizing he won't be able to go back to his people.

    Nice to see Nog back. He's really throwing himself into the "image" of being a perfect, clean-cut Starfleet officer. But it's also nice to know that that doesn't last. He will grow up to the more realistic reality in later episodes.
     
  19. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Hey, good to see you over here from the sinking ship of ST.com's forums! :)

    On subject, the Ascent was a good episode in a number of ways. The plot itself is predictable, but what sells it is the interaction between Quark and Odo. If you put say... O'brien and Bashir in this episode, it would have fallen very flat. Those two are just fun to watch and you get some good character detail on the two. Their love/hate relationship is just enjoyable on so many levels.

    Nog's return, also cliche, but you can deal with it. You knew he'd be back at somepoint. The story between him and Jake was mostly filler, but it does show how much Nog has changed from the bungling thief we saw in Emissary.
     
  20. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    I love The Ascent. I know that the plot that strands Odo and Quark on that planet doesn't move mountains or anything, but the banter between them is so much fun to watch.

    I just try and switch off to how the Jake/Nog thread seemed to magically resolve itself. After the break we had from Nog for a bit when he moved to Earth, it was nice to have a new Jake and Nog side story.
     

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