TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. gazomg

    gazomg Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I take your points TheGodBen..........and yes DS9 had more similarities to B5 than voyager in a warped way....see what I did there....but its still apples and oranges
     
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I tend to agree, if for no other reason than that B5 was largely plotted out in advance while DS9 was much more improvised. I tend to give B5 points for being a generally well-written overall narrative, but I have to give DS9 props for situations where the non-planned out writing still came together very well.
     
  3. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Apocalypse Rising (***½)

    In the middle of a war, Starfleet decides to send one of their top commanders, the captain of a strategically vital space station, on a covert mission into the heart of Klingon territory. You'd think that Starfleet would have a division devoted to these kinds of high-risk undercover operations (in fact they do, Starfleet Intelligence), they they decide to send Sisko instead. Maybe some admiral at Starfleet Command knows Sisko and knows that his... eccentricities would allow him to disguise himself as a Klingon quite easily, but it's still an unusual choice, and it's one that the episode hinges on. But while it doesn't make much sense in-universe, it does lead to an enjoyable adventure, one where we see beloved characters as Klingons, and one which allows us to see a little more of the culture and traditions of one of Trek's most famous races.

    I'm kinda torn on the reveal that Martok was the Changeling and not Gowron. On the one hand, it does add a twist to the episode that serves to shake things up from the expected, but on the other hand it is an easy way out of killing a popular recurring character. Killing off Gowron would have been a big deal, killing off a guy that we've only seen once before isn't such a big deal. On the third hand, in was in this episode that the writers came to appreciate J.G. Hertzler's work and decided to introduce the real Martok, who goes on to become a great character. So there are pluses and minuses to this whole thing.

    As a season opener, this is a step down in scale from what we've come to expect of DS9. Revealing a Changeling at the heart of the Klingon government sounds big on paper, as does almost assassinating Gowron, but compared to the galaxy-shaking events of The Search and TWOTW (and arguably even the Circle trilogy), this doesn't feel as big. It's a good episode, an important episode, but it comes across a bit low-key. Something I did appreciate about this episode were all the little nods to past events. Dukat (and Damar) show up in a Klingon ship, Martok reappears, Odo is still adjusting to being a humanoid, Kira has a few cute scenes about her pregnancy. The show is coming together really well even if it's not willing to commit to full serialisation just yet.
     
  4. gazomg

    gazomg Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    good assesment again.......tend to agree on almost all.
    I am happy it was martok now in hindsight and at the time also i was glad gowron did not die in that episode just to create an impact in the season opener.

    As for damar , he made an impact even with what little dialogue he had, and along with the real martok would be a great character in later episodes.

    As for sending sisko, while implausible its understandable
     
  5. Paper Moon

    Paper Moon Commander Red Shirt

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    A quick thought, may post more later: I'm really glad that the "first" Martok was killed off. The way he was portrayed in "The Way of the Warrior" just wasn't interesting. He was just another belligerent, reactionary Klingon. But killing him off here allowed the writers to bring back the great actor of J.G. Hertzler and use his skills much better, in Martok 2.0, who had fantastic interactions with Worf.
     
  6. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    I thought Avery was utterly awesome in this episode. It's like the little craziness that occassionally shows up when he's playing Sisko is all let out in this episode and makes it very enjoyable to watch him.

    I do wonder what made the Martok changeling think it was such a great idea to respond to the accusation he was a changeling with a tentacly attack while a hundred Klingons with disruptors were watching, instead of just punching Odo and going "PaTaQ!" or a similar response.
     
  7. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    O'Brien as a Klingon was hilarious. :lol:
     
  8. Gotham Central

    Gotham Central Vice Admiral Admiral

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    "Say what ever you want but don't get between me and the blood wine!" Sisko after punching out a boasting Klingon...

    BEST LINE EVER and quoted at many a party :klingon::techman:
     
  9. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Ship (***)

    This is kind of an awkward episode to judge, it does a lot of good stuff, but it doesn't quite come together and it leaves certain elements feeling out of place. The ending seems to imply that if the two sides had trusted one another then there wouldn't have been so much needless death, but this is an episode about a guy who's stealing a ship so that he can gather intel about a hostile race, and the end of the episode suggests the cost may have been worth it. The episode just doesn't seem to work thematically, it's trying to do that traditional Star Trek thing about enemies learning to trust one another while at the same time saying that that distrust was justified and that they'll continue to be enemies into the future.

    Meanwhile, Worf, who has served with humans for about 15 years now, and as head of security on the Enterprise for 6/7 years has seen more than his fair share of death under his command, completely forgets how humans deal with death and picks a fight with O'Brien. I know that the pressure was getting to him and that's why he was being such an ass, but I don't like it when they use Worf in that way, the character is more complex than that. I thought that Jadzia's misplaced humour and Sisko's reaction to it was more effective.

    Overall, the episode is enjoyable, it has some good moments, and some good tension. I think this was the first time we saw the interior of a Dominion ship and it's interesting because it's upside-down, which confused me a bit the first time I saw it. I thought having their consoles coming out of the ceiling was an interesting piece of set-design and was disappointed when we saw the same set the right-sway-up a season later and realised my mistake. :alienblush:

    Runabouts Lost: 5
     
  10. gazomg

    gazomg Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The idea was great of getting a ship, reintroducing it in a latter episode etc...but this whole thing of the jem hadar just leaving with the few ashes and letting the federation have the ship dont make sense not in war time.
    Would the remaining jem hadar not fight to the death toget the ship back and stop it falling into the feds hands.

    nunez was at least given some air time in other episodes to make the character less of a red shirt type so that helped.As you say enjoyable enough but not a classic
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2012
  11. Thor Damar

    Thor Damar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Thor Damar, God of thunder and monologue..
    My favorite bit in that episode is when all that The Sisko can muster upon Dukat's righteous destruction of a Klingon Bird of prey is a weary 'did you really have to do that?' as if he's simply resigned to such casual brutality.

    Plus Damar sniggering at the crew in their Klingon get up and his 'helpful' suggestion.
     
  12. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    I liked how The Ship actually made redshirt deaths seem important for once. The only other Trek show I can remember who did that was Enterprise during the late Xindi arc. I also liked Kilana, it's a shame we only saw her in this episode. She's no Weyoun, but after him certainly my favourite Vorta.
     
  13. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't find it too surprising that upon the death of one of their gods, caused by their own failure (from their POV) the Jem'hadar would commit suicide rather than going berserk.
     
  14. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I also had a problem with "The Ship" missing the ugly, low-tech possible solution to the bleeding. IF done right--and that's a big if--the wound could have been sealed by cauterizing it. Nasty as hell, and would probably have to be done off-screen given how graphic it would be, but that would have at least been a temporary fix (as long as he was not moved and incurred NO more injuries, even a scrape) until he could be removed from the battlefield to a sickbay that could try to treat the poison.
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Hm. I don't recall how well-equipped they were at the time, and now I'm wondering whether a phaser can be used to cauterize, or whether it would likely do more harm than good.
     
  16. BennyRussel

    BennyRussel Commander Red Shirt

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    I agree 100%. Worf was a trained, experienced Starfleet officer who was raised by human foster parents. It is ridiculous that he would be so crass about the dying crewman. Even if he felt that way, he would have known enough to keep his own counsel.

    I wish O'Brien would have cold-cocked him. (Of course, Worf would have snapped his neck, but it would have been worth it.)
     
  17. SilentP

    SilentP Commodore Commodore

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    Thinking of experience with dealing with casualties and the general horrors of combat, it's funny how out of the command crew of DS9, O'Brien is considered the combat veteran over Worf.
     
  18. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    Well Worf talks the talk, clearly, as opposed to ever doing any actual fighting. Honour this and honour that- my foot! :mad:

    In TNG he was clearly shown to be weaker than just about everything in existence. ;)

    Of course the writers used him as a crutch quite often. Whichever new enemy would turn up and kick him into next week to show how strong they were.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
  19. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would say it's more that while Worf has combat experience, it's more the kind of work that Security typically handles in Trek episodes. O'Brien actually served during a war and saw combat on a much larger scale.
     
  20. DS9 Gal AZ

    DS9 Gal AZ Captain Captain

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    Yeah, I liked Kilana. Yeah, I know, she's best known for introducing us to Vorta cleavage, but the actress was good and the character was interesting for a one-off, would've enjoyed seeing more of her ... erm ... that came out wrong ... you know what I mean.

    Fun fact, she was originally going to be Eris (the first Vorta we met at the end of Season 2). This was the second time they tried to bring Eris back, but once again the actress was unavailable.
     

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