TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    I've always had a problem with the (relative) ease with which the concept of altering people's memories or identities is accepted in popular sci-fi, because as you say, TGB, it's at the very least equivalent to murder, but all too often I get the impression many people haven't quite seen it in those terms. The idea of "killing without really killing" doesn't work for me - I see it as no different from plain "killing", only refusing to accept that that's what you're doing. So the whole thing seems distasteful to me.
     
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    I think when I first saw the episode I was hoping that the ending was a set-up for something to happen further down the line. Sadly that was not to be, at least not on the television. It does feel a bit like the writers are trying to have it both ways, and it does kind of bother me that the crew of DS9 has such an issue with Kurn taking his own life...especially since anyone who really wants to do that will find a way eventually.
     
  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    I don't like the ending because it was a very TNG, "let's have our cake and eat it, too," safe type of ending. DS9 had mostly been starting to get away from being TNG-on-a-space-station after its first two seasons, but throughout the show there are still a few episodes here and there that harken back to that feel, and this is one of them.
     
  4. BennyRussel

    BennyRussel Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Location:
    Right around the corner. Just across the track.
    Yes but isn't this the same Doctor that
    changed man into a woman so he could fool another man into thinking he was a woman for a few hours and then changed the woman back into a man after the second man left?
    It may not be as serious as what they did to Kurn, but I wouldn't consider it trivial, either. It's not like removing a mole or something.

    Julian's hard and fast moral code seems to fluctuate whenever it suits the writers. Contrast that with Dr. Leonard McCoy who always placed a high-premium on his medical code of ethics.

    And by the way I agree 100% - murdering the mind is just as bad as murdering the body.
     
  5. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    [​IMG]

    As a communist that wishes to bring down the evil capitalist system, I wholly approve of this episode and its message. I award it five red stars. :borg:


    Meanwhile, in reality...

    Bar Association (***)

    Without getting into the politics of unions and management, I enjoyed this episode as a slice-of-life story. The idea of the Ferengi having to deal with the consequences of a labour union deciding to strike is an intriguing one, and this episode knows not to play it too seriously or two comically. This isn't really a comic episode and it's better than the average Ferengi episode for that reason, the jokes aren't as repetitive and we don't get bogged down in farcical scenes that are supposed to be funny but aren't.

    That's not to say that it's a good episode, it's just pleasant-ish. I actually enjoyed seeing how others on the station reacted to the strike more than the strike material itself. I think the problem is Rom, I don't dislike the character but I don't believe him as a charismatic union leader. There are several points in the episode where Rom gives an impassioned speech that convinces the workers to stand together and it's just not convincing, because this is the guy who started the episode by pouring a drink in his ear and then awkwardly made a plea for a sympathy handjob. But one thing I do like about Rom in this episode is that he finally quits his job as a bartender and becomes a technician, it was about time that he got out from under Quark's shadow.

    Meanwhile, O'Brien and Bashir fight in the Battle of Clontarf. I don't think that Bashir would have been upset about O'Brien getting to play the High King if he had known that he'd end up being slaughtered by Vikings while praying in a tent. Also, Worf decides to move onto the Defiant, because why not?
     
  6. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Location:
    Staffordshire, UK
    Between finally finishing Mass Effect 3 again, my birthday, and getting ready to move house, I totally missed that you were back reviewing. :)

    I always liked Bar Association - one of the better Ferengi episodes. It was a good episode for Rom, and I enjoyed seeing him leave Quark's. Much happiness as a result of that one.
     
  7. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Location:
    The great gig in the sky
    I think Lenin is rising from his grave for the next era of communism is nigh...

    Yeah, we can only dream... I really like Bar Association and I think you are right TheGodBen when Rom is not really a leader sort of figure. Or maybe he's using talents he never knew he had? Fun stuff, only if you are a DS9er...
     
  8. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    Yeah, Rom was not really a good choice as a leader character, but the choice was basically him or Leeta, as Quark's other staff had barely any character. Though Leeta would've been an interesting choice too.
     
  9. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    But, Rom was inspired by Chief O'Brien and his long line of Union Fighters
     
  10. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Location:
    Trill, Federation World and Proud
    Its tough in the Voyager forum at the moment, there's this thread where people are saying season 3 was so awesome and I'm the only dissenting voice :confused: Its like trying to convince the people the world is round but they won't believe you. I've come in here for refuge -.-

    I loved Bar Association personally, I found it hilarious. I feel DS9 always did comedy so well and they rarely had any failed attempts (I didn't love "In the Cards" but I haven't seen it in years).
     
  11. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    Part of me wants to join you in enlightening those poor souls about their dangerously mistaken views, but another part of me really can't be arsed. :shrug:


    Accession (***)

    Vedek Birdseye shows up in Ops one day so that Sisko can do his Prophet magic on a young newly-wed couple (spoiler alert: They broke up six months later after the husband revealed his illegal targ-porn collection) and Sisko privately expresses his discomfort about the whole Emissary thing. Which is convenient as at that moment some guy randomly shows up and reveals that he's the true Emissary. Lazy writing or are the Prophets trying to send a message to the Sisko? Both! Anyway, this new Emissary guy is shocked to find out that Bajor abandoned its caste system, and I'm shocked by that too because I never even knew that Bajor had such a system just 50 years ago. Some of the Starfleet characters also appear unaware of this fact. Isn't it a little weird that everyone seems to talk about human history, or Trill history, or Klingon history, but nobody ever mentioned Bajoran recent history even though they've been on a Bajoran space station for almost 4 years? That's a major weakness of this episode, it retcons one of the major races really late in the show's run.

    The other weakness is that the Bajorans look really silly. The Bajorans think that some guy is the messiah, then some new guy shows up and they decide that he's the messiah instead, then they undergo a radical social overhaul that threatens their future security because the new messiah gives a speech. Vedek Birdseye, a seemingly honourable man before the new guy shows up, becomes a remorseless murderer within the space of a week. Even Kira, one of the strongest, most forceful characters in the franchise, just goes along with all these injustices because some guy said so. This is one of the best anti-religion episodes Star Trek has ever done, but I don't think that was its intention. We needed to see more division among the Bajorans, some sense that this caste system nonsense was heading toward a civil war. As is, they hardly seem like they're worth saving.

    All that being said, this was a good Sisko episode. I really liked Avery Brooks' performance here as a man whose whole world is falling apart because of his short-sightedness. He's so eager to free himself from the position of Emissary that he hands it over without bothering to check what the new guy plans to do with his new position of influence. This destroys Sisko's career, his friendships, and his belief in himself. There's also an interesting bit of foreshadowing thrown in at the end with the first mention that The Sisko is of Bajor.

    Meanwhile, Keiko returns to the station and reveals that she's pregnant. Did anyone else think for a moment that this was going to be a very special episode where Keiko reveals that she cheated on Miles? If I were him the first thing I'd check after the baby was born is whether there are any wrinkles on its nose, but I am the deeply distrustful type. Anyway, with new baby on the way O'Brien must choose between spending with with the love of his life of his wife. This plot isn't great and the ending is a bit too corny for me, but it's not so bad.
     
  12. ATimson

    ATimson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Location:
    Andrew Timson
    Agreed. There's a reason why on Babylon 5 they called it "death of personality". It's capital punishment with a feel-good ending.
     
  13. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Location:
    The great gig in the sky
    You're right about their should been more strife and discension, but Bajorans are spiritual to the point of insanity. I think that is because there is direct evidence of their gods, and the Emissary is probably the closest they'll get to 'knowing' their gods. Personally I think it is quite powerful that Kira's beliefs are such that she abandons her job just so she can be an artist, and that scene which shows how hopeless she is at art shows just how screwy and crazy it is implementing a caste system upon a culture. If anything this episode was not so much anti-religious and more anti-caste system, it even openly attacks the caste system so it is bold this episode.
     
  14. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Location:
    Staffordshire, UK
    I love this one. I like how we see Sisko fighting to regain what he seemed pretty happy to give up at the start of the episode. His path towards total acceptance of his Emmisary role is well on its way by the end.

    I even enjoyed the look at how far Kira and the other Bajorans were willing to go to preserve their religion. Sense won out in the end, but it was a clear message that people were willing to do anything that the ridiculous caste system suggested. The perfect test for Sisko, really. He can't just sit by and let everything do to hell.
     
  15. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    Rules of Engagement (***½)

    I just had an epiphany. How did society go from the way it is now to the utopia presented in the TNG era? Was it a reaction to the horrors of WW3? Was it the result of limitless energy? Was it due to matter replication technology? No, it was none of those things. It's the result of the absence of lawyers. Think about it, there are no lawyers in the 24th century, their role having apparently been replaced by Starfleet officers. The only races we see to have lawyers are the Cardassians and Klingons, both oppressive and militaristic societies. Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have cracked the secret message that Gene Roddenberry was trying to teach us.

    So, what about this episode then? I found it reasonably enjoyable. It's a courtroom episode, and that's been done many times already, but it manages to keep things interesting with the unusual flashbacks where the characters speak to camera. It's not great or anything, the technical aspect of how the Klingons managed to pull the ruse off is questionable for a race that often seem incapable of tying their own shoelaces, and I don't think the the accidental destruction of a civilian ship would have quite the impact they imagine it would. But overall the main plot is okay.

    As an instrument for examining Worf it can be quite interesting. His actions and motivations were questionable, his desire to be respected and feared by other Klingons is driving him to a dangerous place, and he only gets away with it because he was being set up. The weird thing is that if this had been a real accident and not a political manoeuvre by the Klingons then Worf could well have been stripped of his rank and extradited. DS9 sure does love flawed main characters, doesn't it?
     
  16. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Location:
    The great gig in the sky
    Everything about this episode is good accept for that Klingon 'lawyer'. Most of the time he was out of order and acting in an adversarial way, which that Vulcan judge clearly said they shouldn't be; adversarial. But no miss pretty pointy ears just sat by while that fat Klingon dude verbally destroyed Worf. For that this episode deserves two stars. My only explanation is the Klingon lawyer wasn't that familiar with Federation judicial proceedings...
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Well, given what we've seen of Klingon judicial proceedings... ;)
     
  18. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Location:
    Plano, TX
    Oh, I forgot to comment on "Sons of Mogh." I totally agree with everything you said. Here's my condensed list of grievances with that episode:

    1. What in the world made Worf think he could kill Kurn on the station in the first place? If Dax hadn't interfered and he had gone through with the ritual... then what? Vaporize the body? Neither Odo or Sisko would have bee too pleased with that.

    2. Why was Sisko yelling at Dax like she'd done something wrong? She's the one that stopped Worf.

    3. Kurn should have died defending Worf on the Klingon ship. It would have given him the death he wanted, Worf could have felt guilty that he died saving him and had even more reason to brood a need Jadzia's shoulder to cry on. Problem(s) solved.

    4. The only possible way Julian would have agreed to not only wipe Kurns memory against his will, but completely reconstruct his face and his DNA is if Jadzia sucked on his earlobe while asking him to do it.

    5. If they simply had to do the memory-wipe thing, then Kurn/Rodek should have come back. Something about how all those redundancies in Klingon physiology caused his memory to come return. He's pissed cause now Worf is buddy-buddy with Martok and he got shafted. Worf has to fess up to Martok that he did some Federation techno-solution stuff to his own brother and, long story short, Kurn dies.

    All that said, I agree with you GodBen. It was a good episode right up until the very end.

    Okay, I have seen every episode of DS9, but I am drawing a serious blank as to which one your spoiler is referring to :confused:
     
  19. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    That would be the one where Quark undergoes a sex change operation.
     
  20. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    I don't like that idea, I think it's too easy. Honestly, I can't think of a good way to end the episode, I just know that I didn't like the ending we were presented with. :shrug:


    Hard Time (***½)

    Hard Time is the best episode of DS9 that should never have been made. It's a devastating story about a man whose life is destroyed by a single act of violence after 20 years of barbarity, and Colm Meaney turns in one of his best performances in the series. In fact, I'd go so far as to say this is my favourite O'Brien Must Suffer episode, even if it is scored lower than Whispers. It's a great concept, it's well executed, and it all builds up to a powerful scene that would have driven me to tears were it not for the fact that I'm a real man. A really good episode all around.

    But it should never have been made. You can't drive a character to the brink of suicide in one episode and then act like none of it ever happened the next week. This is especially egregious because this is DS9, the one Star Trek show that's notable for its character development. Yet O'Brien forgets all about the 20 years of hell he endures here and is back playing dress-up in the holosuite in no time. If they're going to push a character as far as this then bring it up again in the future, but if they have no interest in doing that then don't push the character that far into the deep end. I've seen this episode nominated as the one episode that fans would remove from the canon and it's hard to deny their logic. As bad as some of the other episodes are, they fit in the continuity better than this one. For that reason, I've removed a whole star from this episode.

    My only other complaint about the episode is the depiction of the hallucinatory Ee'char. It's such a Hollywood way of depicting an emotional crisis, to have a character imagine another person to have conversations with. Sure, I have imagined conversations from time to time, but I've never actually imagined the person in front of me while doing it. Maybe people with PTSD see such visions, I don't know, but I felt it cheapened the episode a little.
     

Share This Page