TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Something I love about The Way of Warrior is that Sisko is completely willing to tell Starfleet Command to go to hell.

    Here's another example of the Prime Directive being used to avoid any responsibility. Federation security is at stake, but TPTB want to let the Klingons attack because it's "purely an internal matter." :wtf: You can't sit by and do nothing when an atrocity is about to be committed. You don't let a race get exterminated, even if that race is the Cardassians. Sisko continues doing the right thing to keep the Alpha Quadrant strong enough to resist the Dominion.
     
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Federation didn't do nothing; they condemned the Klingon attack. Given what we'd seen of Starfleet to that point, it's not unrealistic to believe that they were in no way ready for a spontaneous war with the Klingons, which surely is what would have ensued had they taken a more aggressive stance.

    If the actions of the DS9 crew had led to a full-scale war with the Klingons, which the Federation had perhaps lost, would you still maintain they had done the right thing?

    For the record, I'm not saying that what they did is wrong. Realistically I don't think we're in any position to make a valid assessment...everything we know about the situation is filtered through DS9's perspective.
     
  3. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Moderator

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    Well, it was right around this time that they were transitioning from model to CGI. Therefore, many of the models they had would become obsolete. I read somewhere that a lot of the explosions were actually models being blown up.
     
  4. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Federation Council only decided to condemn the invasion once it had happened and was public knowledge. Before, when they knew that the invasion was coming, they ordered Sisko and the others not to warn the Cardassians.

    Even if what the DS9 crew did in warning the Cardassians through Garak had lead to a full-scale war with the Klingons, how does that negate the fact that it was the right thing to do? You don't sit back and let a massacre happen if you can stop it somehow if you're a moral person. And saying that the Federation Council only ordered them to be quite while they pursued communications with Gowron and the High Council doesn't matter either - they were still willing to let the invasion happen.
     
  5. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    To borrow a line from B5, "We were faced with the deaths of millions...or the deaths of billions."

    The whole point of many of DS9's episodes was that there wasn't a "right" approach and a "wrong" approach...just different perspectives.
     
  6. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Visitor (*****)

    It's difficult being a man. We have to get rid of spiders, we're not allowed to ask for directions while driving, we even have to pee while standing up. Not following this strict code of manhood can lead to the revocation of your status as a real man. But the most important rule that real men must follow is not to cry, because crying is for women and babies. If you're caught crying, or even admitting to crying, you're not a real man anymore. Your eyes are allowed to tear up only in exceptional circumstances, such as the birth of your child or someone being cruel to a dog, but that's the limit. Male trekkies are dangerously close to losing our status as real men anyway and we can only maintain it by claiming to watch the shows for the explosions and cat-suited women.

    The Visitor is the ultimate test for us. Not only is it a terribly emotional story, it also lulls us into false sense of security by showing us other men, even badasses like The Sisko, crying. In fact, about 75% of the episode is men crying. Did I pass the test? Of course I did, I'm a real man. And even if I didn't you wouldn't expect me to admit it online, would you? How stupid do you think I am? Although I will admit that there were times during this episode where I struggled to keep my manhood in check... and I'm not talking about Kira's tighter new uniform! (See, I'm a real man, I made an erection joke.)

    Is this episode perfect? Of course not, there are minor continuity quibbles and I'm not pleased with the episode's lack of a coda. But I feel that it's strong enough in most areas in order to deserve the full five stars. What also strikes me about the episode is the number of callbacks made to it in the series finale; Sisko in a temporal plane of pure light, Jake and Kira staring out the window together, and Jake watching as the station disappears into the distance. It's not quite foreshadowing, but this episode was clearly on the writers' minds when working on the finale and that gives this episode even more power in retrospect.
     
  7. Paper Moon

    Paper Moon Commander Red Shirt

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    ^^ Yes. This.
     
  8. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I came close to crying but did not shed a tear, so I guessed I passed the 'manhood' test. This episode hast to be the DS9 version of The Inner Light, I'm not sure which is best; this episode or The Inner Light. But boy what a story! Tony Todd is just amazing with his acting! Plus Kira in the new uniform!:drool:

    I think this episode is more emotionally moving, and even though its a A to-lot of stuff happens-back to A again episode, it is one hell of a story. Jake Sisko's character may have been underused in this series but he was the main attraction in this episode! Truly gripping from beginning to end, and that is rare for Star Trek episodes, especially the mushy ones. Somehow this episode transcended above all the trappings of mush and drama.

    Amazing!

    And here is a musical score to get you in the mood of this episode:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCQ53pWxDcE&feature=channel_video_title
     
  9. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I never really connected with this episode. I remember watching it, but it didn't have much of an effect on me, and I rarely, if ever, rewatch it.

    A lot of people love it, so I think it's a case where I just missed something, or wasn't in the mood, or whatever.
     
  10. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    TL;DR. Was too busy admiring Kira's new uniform. :drool: ;)

    Seriously though, there are several things I like about The Visitor, most notably the performances....
    1.) Avery Brooks. For a guy who is known to over-act, he manages to curtail it in this episode, even when the script easily lends itself to such over-the-topness.
    2.) Cirroc Lofton and Tony Todd. Jake is required to cry on cue no less than four times here. Each time the actors hit it just right. Never once does it feel forced or artificial.
    3.) Nana Visitor. Even though she only has two scenes, the one with her mothering Jake in the absence of any biological family really impresses me. It shows that Kira is more than just a hard-ass.

    This episode definitely deserves the five stars. :techman:
     
  11. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm kinda in the same boat. I think it has something to do with the fact that the episode hinges on the father-son relationship, something that I haven't had in my life, so I don't relate. That said, I don't think of it as a bad episode. It's well written, I love the alternate history stuff, I really enjoy the old Jake scenes...

    Actually, speaking of the alternate history segments, there's something that gets touched on here that I wish more had been done with - Jadzia stepping in to watch Jake. Given her connection to the family, I wish that they'd utilized her as something of a older sister/mother figure for him more often, something that connected her to the younger Sisko in the same way that they did Captain Sisko.
     
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I give The Visitor more points than Inner Light due largely to the fact that the former is an ensemble episode, whereas IL is a bit of a one-man show. Not that there's anything wrong with a one-man show, but if we're going to pit the two against each other directly, then there you have it.
     
  13. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Inner Light is the most over-rated episode of TNG, so this episode easily beats it. :)
     
  14. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    I think I'd give the edge to The Inner Light, though it slightly suffers from the fact that TNG had very little continuity, so Picard wasn't affected (apart from in Lessons) at all by what should be the most important event in his life.
     
  15. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, it be fair to The Inner Light (yes, I can do that :p) I don't recall the events of The Visitor ever being mentioned again. TheGodBen talks about how thematically it's revisited in future episodes, but as for a direct call-back like they did in Lessons - I don't think they did.
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^^Heh. Conversely I'm willing to give "Inner Light" some additional points precisely because its events were brought up again on a show where repercussions normally didn't extend beyond a single episode.
     
  17. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    It's been ages since I last watched The Visitor (I'm rewatching season 3 now), but didn't everyone forget it ever happened due to time travel? Except maybe Sisko (I'm not sure), but didn't all of it happen in like an hour to him? The events of The Inner Light took 20 years for Picard.
     
  18. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^True. Given the time travel aspect of The Visitor, it would have been more difficult for a future episode to mention it. Sisko is the only one who even knows what happened. The Inner Light didn't have that difficulty.
     
  19. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    I love The Visitor, one of DS9' best hours. It was very emotional and I did have a bit of a cry when I first saw it. I also lost it during the finale, with Jake and Kira left alone at the end. I was already pretty beat up by it all ending, but the callback to The Visitor was nicely done.

    The Jake/Sisko relationship is so special - one of my favourites in all of Trekkie-dom. I felt so bad for Jake for the loss that he felt here, particularly with both Cirroc Lofton and Tony Todd knocking it out of the park repeatedly. Brilliant episode all round.
     
  20. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Is it possible that you're a ghost and don't experience emotions? No wait, even ghosts have emotions, or so the movie Ghost has led me to believe.

    Perhaps you're just weird? :p

    And I intend to knock a few points off Hard Time for doing exactly the opposite.


    Hippocratic Oath (**½)

    Star Trek has a problem. On the one hand it wants iconic, threatening villains that provide our heroes with a real challenge, on the other hand it wants to humanise those villains so that we can better understand them, and possibly leave the door open for peaceful coexistence in the future. It's a noble goal but a tricky balancing act to pull off. It's not impossible, there are a number of races in Trek that have managed it, but there's also some that have been royally screwed over by this policy. I'm thinking of Species 8472 now. Possibly the most powerful belligerent race in the franchise, capable of destroying entire planets with only a handful of ships, but they end up being won over by Chakotay's charm (ha!) and are led by a kindly old man that gives Janeway a flower. :barf2: I understand the intent, but by gods did they handle that badly.

    So far the Jem'Hadar haven't really been humanised, there was an attempt to explore them The Abandoned, but that ended by telling us that they're so violent that it's impossible to relate with them in a meaningful way. This episode attempts to fix that relatability problem but I feel it goes too far in trying to humanise them. Goran'Agar is too "human", at times it seems like he has more in common with Bashir than he does with the other Jem'Hadar in his unit. His desire to be free and his willingness to question the Founders as gods also somewhat undermine the Jem'Hadar as an enemy. I prefer the Jem'Hadar as willing slaves rather than unwilling ones, I find that angle of their nature more interesting. In my opinion, Rocks and Shoals does a far better job at getting me to relate with the Jem'Hadar than this episode and it's precisely because they stick with the order of things even when they know it will lead to a pointless death. Thankfully, other than the death of Weyoun IV, the Jem'Hadar stick to that formula from here on out.

    The other element of this plot I have a problem with is the falling out between O'Brien and Bashir. Once again, I admire the intent but I don't quite buy it. They both take extremist positions and don't even bother trying to understand one another and it comes off feeling a little forced. While watching the episode I felt that the writers started out with the idea of having the two characters falling out and then based a story around that rather than coming up with the story first and letting the characters naturally react to the situation. I wasn't at all surprised when reading the MA article today that that's exactly what happened here.

    There's a b-plot on the station where Worf interferes in Odo's investigation into something or other and in this case my thesaurus has provided the word "agreeable" as an acceptable alternative to "pleasant". Sisko's little speech at the end felt a little too much like a mission statement for the show, but overall it was a nice story about Worf struggling to fit in.

    Form of... a bag: 19
     

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