TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. DS9 Gal AZ

    DS9 Gal AZ Captain Captain

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    Morden! :D

    Can you imagine Morden and Weyoun meeting?
     
  2. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    "What do you want?"

    "To serve the Founders...in all things".

    Then they stare at each other for five minutes with smarmy, slightly creepy smiles on their faces.

    Then they part on "friendly" terms, each knowing the other has decided that they and everything they stand for must be destroyed.
     
  3. Thor Damar

    Thor Damar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That reminds me of Kai Winn and Weyoun meeting.

    "We have so much in common."

    {Winn checks Weyoun's pagh and recoils in horror} "No, we don't"

    Now imagine Gul Dukat and Lord Refa bumping into each other...
     
  4. mattyhugh

    mattyhugh Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I always thought Vir and Rom would get along.
     
  5. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    :eek:
     
  6. DS9 Gal AZ

    DS9 Gal AZ Captain Captain

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    Perfect! :techman::evil:

    I'm pretty the Shadows would see the Founders as Vorlons made of goo ...

    Gul Dukat and Lord Refa? Hmm. I actually think Dukat's more closely analogous to Cartagia, especially at the end.
     
  7. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Dukat's scarier than Cartagia, though. :) Cartagia was dangerous because he had incredible political power and the freedom to do whatever he wanted. If he hadn't, he'd just be a raving loony who would likely get himself killed before too long. Emperor Cartagia is a terror, but Citizen Cartagia would just be pitiful. Dukat, though, is truly dangerous regardless of his situation. "Citizen Dukat" is every bit as dangerous as Gul Dukat....
     
  8. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Then suddenly, I just realized, Vir and Rom have incredibly similar character arcs throughout their respective shows!:eek:
     
  9. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Morden was easily one of my faves on B5, especially after reading the novels.

    Still wonder how he got into C&C in the pilot though. :)
     
  10. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Way of the Warrior (****)

    This was the episode that made me a Niner all those years ago. An obvious, some might say boring, choice but this was the episode that made me realise DS9 was so much more than TNG and Voyager. There was action on a scale I had never before seen on television, and that speaks quite loudly to a 10 year old boy. But it wasn't just action without meaning, this wasn't some alien-of-the-week stirring up trouble, this was the Klingons wreaking havoc, this was an episode that was clearly going to have consequences in the future. And it did. I may not have fully understood the political situation involving the Cardassians and the Dominion because I had somehow missed The Die is Cast, but I knew that what was happening was a Big Fucking Dealâ„¢ and I wanted to join the ride and find out where the greater story was going next.

    Looking back on it now it's not quite the amazing experience it was when I was younger, it's much easier to see its flaws, but it's still a very solid arc episode with tonnes of action, politics, and character moments. Watching it again, what stood out for me wasn't all the big events (although I did enjoy those) but the lighter moments between the characters. O'Brien and Bashir sit in Quark's flinging sand peas into their mouths, Odo and Garak have breakfast together (a nice follow-up to The Die is Cast), and Jadzia and Kira have some fun in the holosuite. The best of them all is of course the legendary root-beer scene. Two great characters, both of them stuck in a political situation that they're helpless to do anything about, both forced to seek protection from an organisation they're slowly growing to respect.

    Meanwhile, Worf joins the cast. Worf was hardly a necessary addition to the show, DS9 would have gotten along fine without him, but they decided they needed a ratings stunt and Worf was the stunt they decided to pull. Full credit to the show because the character slots in well enough here. Of all the characters on TNG, Worf is clearly the one most suited to DS9. He has the whole divided loyalties gimmick, he has daddy issues, he even had some respectable character development on a show not well known for it. And after watching this video last week, it's nice that Worf is now on a show where his talents are respected.

    Having the Changelings infiltrate the Klingon government in order to make them attack the Cardassians for ostensibly being infiltrated by the Changelings and thus triggering a conflict between the Federation and the Klingons is brilliant. Confusing to write, but brilliant. It ties in perfectly with The Die is Cast where the Lovok Changeling suggests they already had plans to weaken the Federation and Klingons, and with The Adversary where it's apparent that the Changelings are attempting to trick the AQ powers into warring with one another. The Klingon conflict does seem to detract from the Dominion threat by way of reduced screen-time (not that the Dominion were all that present in season 3), but under the surface it's all part of the same grand arc.

    In the end, this episode probably did too much too quickly. So much happens in this episode that it probably would have been served better by an arc similar to the one that started season 6. The Cardassian government falls, the Klingons declare war on the Cardassians, the Federation's alliance with the Klingons breaks down, and Worf is introduced, all in a two-parter. It works, but it shakes up the status quo so violently that the rest of the season is almost a let-down for sticking to the new status quo. It's a ginormous event episode in a season that otherwise lacks them. Spreading the wealth over a couple of episodes might have been a better way of going about things.

    Form of... a Seat Cover: 16
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  11. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think a six-part arc would have worked for it. For one, TPTB obviously weren't ready for something of that magnitude. Second, six parts might have been pushing it. I think a three part episode, which the show had already done, would have been more suitable.

    Still, The Way of the Warrior is easily one of show's best episodes.
     
  12. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Wow, that is hilarious :lol:

    As for The Way of the Warrior, I can't really find much fault with it. A lot does happen quickly, but nothing un-happens, it's exciting, some of the character moments are amazing (other than the root beer conversation, I think my favorite is the bit between Odo and Quark about Rom stealing the disruptor), and the consequences are far-reaching.

    I think that the knowledge of Worf's arrival as a ratings stunt tends to make it easy to underestimate how cohesive these events actually are, and how well they fit into the story overall. Rather than rushing toward a confrontation with the Dominion, we see the effects of the changelings working in the background, preparing the alpha quadrant for conquest.

    Great stuff.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2012
  13. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    ^ The disruptor-in-a-box scene is certainly a great one. It's a truly hilarious delivery from Auberjonois: "you're going to hit them with a box?" :lol: My sister, when she watched it with me, let out an involuntary giggle at that point. Oh, and "With what?" is near-perfect too. Odo's smugness is fantastic.

    Obviously, the Root Beer scene has already been discussed, and its quality noted. :)

    I also really like the Kira/Jadzia scene in the holodeck; I think the two characters work well together when the scene sets up a contrast between the two, their perceptions and their backgrounds. Jadzia's the "privileged" woman who grew up on a prosperous planet (and is also in the minority elite of her culture, due to being Joined) and whose trials and personal demons stem from introspective self-doubt and failures to live up to her full potential. Well, at first anyway (to acknowledge our ongoing Curzon Ascendant debate). On the other hand, Kira is a person from a war-torn world who struggled through hell to get where she is and whose demons are grounded in circumstance, external reality, and the trauma of action and experience. It's an interesting contrast that comes off well in this scene. I wish there were more like it.
     
  14. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah, the delivery is so good that it remains funny even when you know the lines by heart.

    As to the Kira/Jadzia scene, I agree that it adds a different layer to their friendship than we really see elsewhere.

    One downside to seasons three and four, imo, is that the writers are understandably expending a lot of effort on making the Starfleet characters (especially Sisko and Bashir) interesting, as that had previously been a problem, to the point that Kira, who is easily the show's most interesting character in the first two seasons, loses a bit of her edge and fades into the background. Doesn't really matter in the long run because she becomes a focal point again starting in season 5.

    What you do see happen in the middle seasons, which is not very... scintillating in the short term, but which is productive in the long run, is the writers' exploring, like in these scenes with Jadzia, the idea that this traumatized person now has a comfortable life. So, in a sense, while it's a galactic crisis for everyone else, it's actually the most relaxing existence that Kira has ever had.

    So, that's interesting.
     
  15. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I personally season 4 was more coherent than season 3, and nearly every episode of season 4 was a pleasure to watch (which I've never found in one season of TNG or VOY). The writers explored with more subtle points and added flesh to all the secondary characters, while keeping the intrigue up. I never felt that season 4 drifted because so many of the episodes were so damn good. Perhaps at the end of this season you might mathematically bump into this fact and validate it TheGodBen.
     
  16. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Can I haggle you up to a four-parter and we'll call it a deal? ;)

    What struck me about that video was that in a few clips Worf's suggestions were the right course of action but Picard summarily dismissed them for being too hostile. Some of those episodes would have been much shorter had Worf been captain.

    Worf was one of the better characters on TNG, but in episodes that didn't revolve around him there was an tendency to use him as an example of regressive thinking so that Picard and the others could look more enlightened. I don't remember that problem cropping up much on DS9, but I am wearing rose-tinted glasses.

    From what I remember season 4 was the first truly consistent season of DS9, so I imagine it will get a good score. But at the same time, nothing much happened. WOTW shook things up in a big way but the rest of the season played it safe, even Homefront/Paradise Lost reverted back to the status quo by the end of the story. Small elements of the story changed, such as Dukat's private little war against the Klingons and Eddington joining the Maquis, but the political landscape remained largely unchanged. Seasons 5, 6, 7, and arguably 2 & 3 did a better job at advancing the meta-story.
     
  17. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    Okay, I suppose four will be acceptable. ;)



    And my favorite part from the Worf video is from The Masterpiece Society....

    WORF: Why shouldn't we grant them asylum?
    TROI: We can't do that.

    Even we he suggests the reasonable course of action (which they end up taking anyway) there's still somebody ready to shoot him down. :lol:
     
  18. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Just finished watching The Way of the Warrior and I noticed a few things:

    1. Not only was everything spruced up, but even the colours and image quality was. You watch The Adversary and there is almost a little blur to everything whereas with The Way of the Warrior everything was razor sharp. It looked like a movie for Godsake!

    2. Klingons happen to be the best race ever! Full of passion, violence and madness!

    3. Worf so fitted in to everything!

    4. This felt more like an ensemble cast here and not just two or three characters getting the lime light. There was a curious balance of screen time for both the main and secondary characters.

    5. Space battles; are finally done justice and you get to really see just what the consequences of all the intrigue of the first half of this episode amount to.

    One amazing episode and you could argue it is five stars because it sets a standard for all future Star Trek episodes and movies. Truly awe inspiring and after three seasons a real gem like this (not forgetting The Die is Cast; the original precursor for all the awesome episodes to come) was worth the wait.
     
  19. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, there's also that one where he's like... "Why are we sending over our Chief Engineer?" And Picard's like... No, no we must. LoL. (It's been a while, but I think that's Samaritan Snare, where Geordi ends up spending the whole episode as a prisoner.)

    Part of what makes it funny is seeing Michael Dorn's "acting" in the same situation over and over.

    Also the time loop episode where Worf's idea gets dismissed each time through the loop :lol:
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^Just a point of order - That was Riker, not Picard. Picard was getting his heart tended to at the time.

    One thing that sticks out for me during "Way of the Warrior" is that the pyrotechnics seem to have been revamped and improved. The exploding Klingon ships, especially noticable during the battle with Defiant, seem a lot more realistic than the typical explosions seen prior in the series, and those seen in TNG.