TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Shatnertage

    Shatnertage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: "Facets," it showed the world that Nana Visitor's going to make an adorable little old lady some day.

    The Tzenkathi? Maybe the Alpha Quadrant's running low on kitty litter.

    What I don't get about "The Adversary" is that, if I'm remembering it right, Odo didn't murder the Changeling. They were fighting and the Bad Guy accidentally got fried. It certainly wasn't his intent to kill the guy, so for me it renders a big chunk of Odo's arc empty.

    Second, how did the Founders find out that Odo "killed" the Changeling? Or did they just hear that he died and Odo was there, and put the worst possible spin on it.

    I might be getting ahead of myself here, but by Linking, wouldn't they know that he didn't want to kill the guy?

    The way it is, Odo's just being persecuted on a technicality.

    To make it interesting, what if they had him consciously choose to kill the Changeling? Say, Kira's in danger, and the only way he can save her is to make a choice to kill the Changeling? Or he links with the Changeling, learns what he's going to do, and feels so angry (and horrified about who he himself really is) that he kills him?
     
  2. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Dominion's not exactly big on flexibility. As far as they're concerned, a rule is a rule even if it's a stupid rule. It's like those people from TNG's "Justice" on steroids.
     
  3. DS9 Gal AZ

    DS9 Gal AZ Captain Captain

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    How did the Founders know Odo killed a Changeling? Easy:

    "You're too late. We are everywhere."
     
  4. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Heh, who's to say there was only one Changeling on Defiant at the time?

    And I agree, the Founders wouldn't care whether or not Odo wanted the other Changeling dead. All that would matter was that Odo enabled it to occur.

    But then, did we really think this would end any other way? It's not as though they could just stick the Changeling in the brig.
     
  5. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    Ooh good point! That would have been a more ominous ending too. Although my boring thought was that as we saw that Changelings were on Earth during Homefront/Paradise Lost, it would be easy for one to get access to Starfleet records.

    I like this episode. I think the wirters did well with it considering their plans were changed by Paramount.

    I sort of wished we could have had what the writers intended for season four. Don't get me wrong I love Way of the Warrior and Worf, and I loved that the Klingon/Federation conflict is a result of Dominion meddling. It all links up so well in season five, but I can't help but feel we were robbed of something that would have developed the Dominion in a different way.

    It's hard to imagine what would have replaced season four though. It was a very consistent year, with lots of good episodes.
     
  6. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    I really like this episode. I love the atmosphere of suspicion and fear it creates - something that's not very common for Trek. Also, I like that there's no TNG-esque hand-wringing about what they have to do - there's a Changling on board and they have to kill him, end of story.

    I also like that TPTB started to really accept that the show was becoming a serial at this point. Ira Steven Behr himself has stated that it was with this episode that they began to plan far in advance for future episodes, and it shows. Not only are they laying the groundwork which will dominate the Federation-Dominion Cold War, they're also setting up side-plots (like Eddington possibly being a traitor).
     
  7. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think The Adversary nicely conveyed a feeling of doom regarding the Dominion, and many a time (even now) I still get that feeling of 'how on Earth will the Federation survive this?' even though I seen the whole series three times. This was a good way to wrap up season 3, end with the Dominion threat and show just what changelings are capable of. Also this is the last time Sisko has hair on his head...
     
  8. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    Well yeah. Thanks to the Dominion, shit just got real, so Sisko has to step up his game. :techman:
     
  9. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    One thing I think is a real shame in season 3 is that the Founders and Jem'Hadar are really set up well and their threat to the Federation explored, while the Vorta are more or less forgotten. In the Jem'Hadar/Search three-parter, they were shown off a lot, and then they're sort of forgotten until season five, when we get Weyoun.
     
  10. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    That is true. After The Search, Part II we only see them once in the next 50 episodes (with Weyoun's introduction in To the Death). Even then, it's 45 episodes between The Search and To the Death.

    They really could have used some development so that when we learn that they're all clones, it doesn't come so far out of left field.
     
  11. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    From what I can piece together from the snippets on Memory Alpha, the first two Vorta characters didn't manage to sell the idea of them being cosmic car-salesmen, so they didn't bother with them again until season 4 with Weyoun. Jeffrey Combs knocked it out of the park and the writers were upset that they had needlessly killed him off, so in season 5 they came up with the cloning idea so he could be brought back.
     
  12. DS9 Gal AZ

    DS9 Gal AZ Captain Captain

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    Yes, I've heard the same thing as above. I believe their words were something along the line of "We finally had a Vorta who sold the Vorta."
     
  13. Thor Damar

    Thor Damar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I always thought that Eris was supposed to garner sympathy from the Alphies and use it to ingratiate herself as a spy for the Founders, or at least as a more visible spy, to distract from the shapesifters. Since this failed I'm assuming that particularly unique clone was...retired and a standard clone was used as a behind the scenes facilitator in the Gamma Quadrant.

    So the Dominion went for operational phase A2, manipulative diplomacy and they had to find a Vorta as cunning slimy and quick witted as the all too sly denizens of the Big A.
    (C'mon, you don't think that the Humans have reformed themselves and become model sentients by the 24th century do you?;))

    Of course later on we meet a Vorta who is rather different in his approach...
     
  14. DS9 Gal AZ

    DS9 Gal AZ Captain Captain

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    Thor Damar, I believe the show runners at DS9 actually planned to bring Eris back, and tried to do so several times. She was supposed to have been the Vorta in "The Search" Parts I and II, but the actress was unavailable, so they went with a male Vorta, Borath (no, not Borat, Borath). They next tried to bring her back for the season 5 episode "The Ship," but once again, the actress couldn't do it, so the role of Kilana (otherwise known as "The Vorta with a nice rack") was created.

    I do believe she pops up in some treklit, though.
     
  15. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    And thank God she was. :techman:
     
  16. InklingStar

    InklingStar Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It would have been interesting to see Eris again. The lines Kilana had about Sisko and she not trusting each other would definitely have carried more weight.
     
  17. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think DS9 from season 3 spoilt us all rotten, it had so many interesting secondary characters (and one-off characters) and episodes that there were all sorts of unexplored possibilities that many of us of would have liked to see explored. It's a sign of DS9's richness and how it simply overflowed with ideas...
     
  18. DS9 Gal AZ

    DS9 Gal AZ Captain Captain

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    Aside from her obvious attributes, I liked Kilana. Good one-shot character. I would've liked to see Eris again too though.
     
  19. JoeD80

    JoeD80 Captain Captain

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    I think the DS9 Companion says this episode would have been the finale either way. It was the opener to season 4 that changed to the Klingon thing instead of following up on the Changeling threat.
     
  20. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    According the MA (with the Companion as its source), they were originally planning to do a story about the Changelings on Earth as the season finale, and their meddling in internal affairs would bring the Federation to the point of civil war, with Vulcan officially withdrawing. The cliffhanger was going to be Starfleet opening fire on a Vulcan ship in Earth orbit, or something like that. Paramount instructed them not to end on a cliffhanger so that they could pull some sort of ratings stunt for the season 4 opener (which eventually became Worf and the Klingons), and their original idea was pushed back to mid-season with some modifications.