TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Yes, it would certainly have been nice if someone in the makeup department was thinking about such things and making the aliens plausible. It's strange that no-one would propose that having an alien unable to eat effectively isn't the soundest design. :lol: At least it leaves us opportunity to try and reason it out ourselves. I like the parasite idea (I suppose you're suggesting something akin to the pink puppet-things, the bluegill?).

    Perhaps this should have been another of TheGodBen's tally lists: "Aliens Who Give The Middle Finger To Darwin".
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2011
  2. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think Elaysians would have to be added to that list. Hell, they don't even obey the laws of physics as far as I understand them; what was their planet made of, styrofoam?
     
  3. M

    M Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Hm, I don't know. While I certainly don't love "Melora", I sure like it. It's not one of Trek's best love stories, that's for sure. (Although I must admit to finding the low-gravity scene quite romantic. :D) But what I really enjoy about the episode is Melora's character. The way she looks at her situation seems realistic.
     
  4. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I also like the character reasonably well, which keeps this episode from being a total loss for me, but I basically agree with everything that's been said about how irritating these one-episode romance stories can be.

    Second Sight and Meridian are worse, though, I think. A Simple Investigation is substantially better, because of how that episode contributes to Odo's character arc overall.
     
  5. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Rules of Acquisition (**½)

    Hey guys, did you know that the Ferengi are misogynistic and greedy? If you didn't then you must not have watched any of DS9's Ferengi episodes because they pound those two facts into your skull repeatedly for for an hour straight. That's the problem with this episode, it's just the same old jokes over and over again. The humour rarely rises above the Two and a Half Men level. As a comedy episode, this doesn't really work, but if you treat it a little more seriously it's not so bad.

    In some ways, this episode introduces the major Ferengi plot for the rest of the series; the emancipation of Ferengi females and the liberalisation of their society. It's not one of the most important or celebrated plotlines, but it is part of the tapestry of the show that makes DS9 grander than the others. With TNG using the Ferengi mainly as ineffectual villains, the issue of Ferengi females only came up as a way of making them seem like savages, it was never properly addressed, so it's good that DS9 chose to actually address that issue at least semi-seriously. Pel is a crusader for women's rights that has to pretend to be a man in order to prove her worth, much like many women in human history. The fact that Pel falls in love with Quark and can't stop herself from kissing him is somewhat unfortunate, it plays to the stereotype that women are romantics and are ruled by their emotions, which kinda undercuts the points that Ferengi females are equal to Ferengi males. But I guess that's the comedy side of things trying to barge its way into the story again.

    What this episode is probably most famous for is the introduction of the Dominion, and the handling of that wasn't bad. In fact, of the three episodes this season that hint at the existence of the Dominion, this probably handled it the best as it was more than just a name-check, the Dominion were at the core of this plot. The entire negotiation story was secretly about learning of the Dominion, and we get some sense that they're the key to the Gamma Quadrant rather than some generic threat. I'm not sure how effective it was to place the first reference to the Dominion in a light-hearted Ferengi episode because the Dominion were already a major part of the show by the time I became a fan. I'm intrigued, did any of you see this episode when it aired and write off the Dominion as something inconsequential, or did the reference pique your interest?
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Saw it when it first aired, and I rather liked the episode, especially as a sort of Ferengi "Crying Game". I think I wasn't clear on whether the Dominion thing was going to prove to be a one-off or something with repercussions, but I was intrigued by the latter aspect to be sure.

    I rather like the sneaking of something so consequential into an episode that appears to be insignificant for the most part.
     
  7. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I like that this major reference to the Dominion happened in this inconsequential comedy episode that would in later years would probably get classified as a filler episode. You don't really take them seriously, because they've been brought up in a Ferengi episode, and those aren't supposed to be major tales, right?

    But my clear memories of watching first run DS9 aren't until the later seasons either, so I don't know how effective it was at the time.
     
  8. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    I remember watching it when it first aired and it did pique my interest. If they had developed the Dominion more fully in this episode I probably would have written it off as a one shot deal. But, the fact that they left it so ambiguous told me that there were things to come with this thing called the Dominion.
     
  9. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

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    This was the episode were we find out that women couldn't do business in Farengi Society right? I think overtime I've come to like this episode because when you see the overall Farengi arc of the series, this episode and The Negus (Which I just watched the other day) were the building blocks to correcting the farengi damage done by TNG. In that sense, I think this was one of the better Farengi shows they did, only for it to get worse as the series went along.
     
  10. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    I think one strong point that this episode has is that it shows that Quark does have his limits - which will be exploded more fully in later episodes. He could have thrown Pel to the wolves, but when push came to shove, he did the right thing.
     
  11. Shatnertage

    Shatnertage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Crying Game? I don't know what all the hoopla's about.

    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzznBDz-758[/yt]

    I got more of a Yentl vibe from this episode. And I recall liking it when I watched it.
     
  12. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think this episode is alright, though only when compared to other Ferengi episodes. It doesn't have Ishka for a start! :o At least it tried to look at female Ferengi in a serious way.

    Way back when I saw the series for the first time, I honestly couldn't remember that the Dominion had been brought up before The Jem'Hadar. I was only just getting into the series really, so didn't really remember what came before. I was far more impressed during my first rewatch of the show how far ahead they were namedropping though.

    Having said that though, this episode and Sanctuary, the other episode where they were referenced, were both very average. It's funny that the references were in these episodes, before we get blown away by The Jem'Hadar.

    But I'm way ahead of myself. :D
     
  13. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    QFT!

    I can't stand Ishka!
     
  14. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Ishka is great, annoying and whining... By the way Admiral Shran I like what you've done to Kira's mouth. Thumbs up for ruining such a nice-looking face! ;)
     
  15. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Necessary Evil (****)

    When this episode comes up in discussions it is often pointed out that it sets the show apart from TNG because Kira actually killed a guy. And I guess that my response to that is "So?" She was a member of of resistance movement during an occupation, collaborators are routinely killed in these kinds of situations, it's not unexpected that Kira would have carried out such an act in her past. DS9 set itself apart by putting her in the show in the first place, this episode doesn't change my opinion of the character much. Kira has killed lots of people, some of them were probably civilians that were caught in the crossfire, and killing a man that claimed to be a civilian when he was secretly working with the occupiers seems like the lesser of those two crimes. It wasn't even premeditated murder, she was caught trying to steal his info and she either had to kill him or allow herself to be captured and executed. I'm not saying it was right, I'm not making any moral judgements, I'm just saying that it's not as shocking as some make it out to be.

    I have some minor issues with this episode. Firstly, there's Odo's log entries. I get that they were going for a film noir feel for this episode and the log entries play into that, but they just didn't sound like Odo to me, they came across as forced. Secondly, Rom's characterisation gave me whiplash. He spent the previous episode concerned about losing his brother's affections, but in this episode he wants him to die again because he wants to own the bar. If this episode had come a couple of episodes before Rules of Acquisition it wouldn't have been a big deal, but here it felt like a stab at humour that missed the mark.

    However, I consider those to be minor faults in an otherwise great episode. Seeing the station during the occupation was fantastic, as were seeing Odo's first interactions with Dukat, Kira, and Odo. Dukat's in particular was excellent, you almost believe him when he says that he wants Odo to find the killer so that he doesn't have to go through the brutality of killing 10 innocent Bajorans, when the truth is that he knows Odo is the best hope of routing out members of the Bajoran underground. A part of me wonders if Dukat actually believes his own lie. It's fascinating seeing these four characters in their first entanglements with one another, especially knowing the important roles they're going to play in one another's lives. Also, after hearing so much about the horrors of the occupation, it's about time that we got to see how bad things were back then.
     
  16. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Necessary Evil is, simply put, necessary DS9. ;)

    I'll get my coat. :(

    It's essential viewing, and one of season two's best episodes. I'd even go so far to say that I'd push it all the way to five stars, and say it's one of DS9's top twenty episodes.

    I just love it so much. I know that we've been used to Kira's terrorist history since DS9 started, and all the subsequent years since it went off air, which I may feel may influence our opinion of the episode. I don't think it gets in the way of Necessary Evil being a classic though. The scenes in the past are brilliantly done, and I love Odo piecing together things in the present. His confrontation with Kira is particularly strong, and left me open-mouthed.

    The Rom stuff is silly but it's a miniscule part of the episode. Badly placed? I agree with that. :)
     
  17. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Necessary Evil is definitely one of best episodes of Season 2, probably tied with The Jem'Hadar. I never really understood why, but season 2 of DS9 had many good episodes, but they lacked that special quality about them. Season 3 had this to a lesser extent, while season 4 was almost flawless in my eyes.

    I think 'the shock' is that Kira for all this time has lied to Odo, and with their friendship they have been open in matters they consider important. I also think Odo was a little hurt, and confused, by the fact that Kira had pulled the wool over his eyes successfully, and if she hadn't done that she would be facing a Cardassian firing squad.

    Personally that sort of thing would make me feel very strange, conflicted and pained. Perhaps that's why it seems so significant. I don't think Rom was out of character. Of course he would want his brother to die, then he would realize his (Rom) lifelong dream of owning the bar!

    You just have to remember that Ferengi are a paradox of morality. On hand they do love their family, but on the other would sell their own family members (or want bad things to happen to the family) if they could get massive leverage or financial gain. Once you really understand the Ferengi, such contradictory behaviour makes perfect sense.

    That is why I think the Ferengi episodes, and Ferengi in general, on DS9 are so awesome, and funny!
     
  18. Shatnertage

    Shatnertage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I liked this one, too. It's amazing what turning the lights down did for the atmosphere.
     
  19. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's odd because it's not the focus of the episode (which is Kira deceiving Odo, not Kira killing the guy).

    Overall, I think you're underrating this episode quite a bit. The monologues might over-emphasize the noir mood to a degree, but they're also frequently hilarious (for example Odo's comment about humanity's urge to store records of everything).

    Beyond that, this episode introduced Terok Nor and thereby added a whole extra dimension to the show that had been missing previously and would be exploited on numerous occasions in the future, either directly or indirectly (for example, at the end of Call to Arms). When an episode makes an important contribution to the overall fabric of the series like that, while being awesome in its own right, that's about as much as a single episode can really accomplish.

    For example, The Jem'hadar makes a big contribution to the series, but as an episode, it's not on the same level.
     
  20. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I've read several DS9 first-timer threads and that point comes up pretty much every time. As for Kira deceiving Odo, I can kinda see it, but not really. Kira didn't know Odo back then and it's made clear earlier in the episode that they haven't talked about those events since that time. I'm not going to bring up events from my past that I'm ashamed about unless I'm prompted into doing so, I don't see why Kira should be expected to do differently.

    Which doesn't even make sense, Odo worked for the Cardassians and the show has previously described them as meticulous record-keepers. The idea that they didn't insist on Odo recording a log, or that Odo suddenly finds Starfleet's requirements overly burdensome, they seem kind of weird.

    Yes, I'm nit-picking, that's what I do, I pick nits. I picked the nits out of Voyager and now I'm doing the same to DS9 so that nobody can accuse me for being a Trekist.

    And some great episodes contain annoyances that lose them points. That's always the way my scores have worked.