TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Check out what's behind the second spoiler code of Post #19. :eek:

    And, FWIW, I didn't think it's ended poorly at all with Winn teamed up with Dukat.
     
  2. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, I think it's time to move on from the Scott Bakula stuff, stretching it beyond Enterprise and into the B5 thread was probably a bit too silly. There shall be no more jokes about characters or actors from Quantum Leap in this thread.


    The Siege (***½)

    The episode is a step down from the previous two episodes, but not by as much as I remembered. Sadly, it doesn't move at the same breakneck pace as the previous two, because the station-based plot is essentially about stalling for time while Kira and Jadzia do their thing. The political intrigue that enriched the previous two episodes is also mostly removed, the decisions have already been made, this episode is just about waiting for the pieces to reach their destination.

    The opening scene is good, but it's a little schmaltzy what with all the Starfleet officers volunteering to stay behind. I prefer "The Line" scene in the BSG finale as the majority Galactica's crew chose not to go on Adama's suicide mission, and if Adama can't convince all the people then Sisko doesn't have a hope. Don't get me wrong, I love Sisko and would be willing to sacrifice a lot for him, but I would kill my first-born child if Adama asked me to. What a guy. :luvlove: Anyway, the strongest part of the episode is the opening act as we witness the evacuation of the station, these scenes have a certain chaotic energy to them that once again makes this show feel larger than any of the others in the franchise. They're also an interesting parallel to the much more celebrated evacuation later in the series. It's also a nice touch how Sisko left his baseball behind on his desk, beginning its thematic importance that returns many times later in the series.

    The rest of the episode is good, although rarely great. Kira and Jadzia find an old ship and try to get to Bajor, while Sisko and co hide out in the maintenance tubes. I did find it interesting that Sisko, Li, and O'Brien, the three experienced combat veterans, are all in the same group while Bashir, the inexperienced Doctor, is given a team on his own while also given the task of babysitting Quark. It's almost as if Sisko makes command decisions based on who annoys him and how far away he can put them. There's some shooting, some hostage-taking, and some ship-to-ship combat, but Kira finally reaches the Chamber of Ministers and hands over a data-pad that shows there's a 98.7% chance that the Cardassians are behind the coup.

    [​IMG]

    The ending is the weakest part of the episode, and trilogy. Firstly, Li Nalas dies a pointless death because the writers thought they were done with him. It would have been more interesting to keep him alive and use him as a recurring character, maybe even taking over the role Shakaar played later in the series. The larger issue is that the underlying problems that led to the coup aren't resolved. The Provisional Government are still weak and ineffective, there's still a fear of Federation interference held by many Bajorans, but these get brushed under the rug so we can have a tidy ending. While the threat of a Cardassian return probably gave some Bajorans pause for thought, the problems that motivated Li's rescue still exist and need to be addressed, which makes killing him off all the more ludicrous.

    Form of... a wall: 8
    Form of... a tripwire: 9
     
  3. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    Oh I didn't mean anything by my comment about the Bakula jokes. Feel free to ignore me and throw him in, it's your thread! (Unless you didn't take offense, and you're stopping it because you actually want to. Which would make more sense really. :shifty:)

    And what the hell is Kira holding in that pic? I laughed even though I don't know what it is. It sort of looks like a golden revolver with flowers coming out of it. :lol: I should find my glasses.

    I agree that this episode is where the plot was losing its steam. I did enjoy seeing the characters preparing themselves for the onslaught, since there were some good conversations going on. I also enjoyed Dax and Kira getting the old Bajoran ship working, as it was pretty funny seeing Dax's reactions to the cranky old thing. (And that's the ship, not Kira.)

    Unfortunately, Li Nalas' death means that there is no hero to ultimately unite Bajor. It's a shame that, particularly in The Homecoming, his character had a lot of potential. I think the writers were later trying the hero thing with Bareil, but ultimately went with what would provide more story opportunites with making Winn the new Kai, and he too fell by the wayside. And of course Shakaar came along, and went away again. Poor Bajor needed uniting and then it just sort of fell away into the background. :(
     
  4. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's ziggy. I never said anything about not using Quantum Leap props. Sadly, the images for ziggy that I found on Google Images weren't that good, most of them were fake replicas.
     
  5. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    :lol: Ok everything is much funnier now.

    I should have got that really, though I haven't seen Quantum Leap for a few years now.
     
  6. Gotham Central

    Gotham Central Vice Admiral Admiral

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    One thing that I did like about this episode that is not immediately apparent is that Winn's public betrayal of Jarro makes perfect sense.

    The one thing that the writers do later on in the series is make it clear that Winn has no love for the Cardassians. She fought them in her own way during the occupation and would not willingly be a part of any scheme that would result in their return.

    Winn, though power hungry, was always shown to be a patriot. Part of her issue with Sisko, as we later find out, is that she never understood why, despite her faith, loyalty, and personal suffering, did the Prophets choose an outsider as their emissary. I like that she ends up being far more complex than the manipulative schemer that she appears to be at the outset.
     
  7. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That scene from nuBSG that you mentioned with The Line was one of the really striking things about that episode--the fact that it seemed truest to what you'd expect in real life, rather than a movie convention.

    That said, I liked this trilogy. It's actually rather chilling in that it really resembles relations between Iraq, Iran, and the US after the Second Gulf War. Way ahead of its time.
     
  8. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So Kira is really a hologram. It all makes perfect sense now.

    I'm probably really showcasing my ignorance here, but I don't see the connection.
     
  9. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, that's something I really liked about the episode, Winn wanted power but wasn't willing to take the risk of the Cardassians returning, and it was her desire to review the evidence that brought down Jaro. Even Jaro probably didn't know what was really going on.


    Invasive Procedures (**)

    Everyone that returned to the station at the end of the previous episode leaves again because of space rain, or something ridiculous like that. Some mercenaries use this as an opportunity to board the station and steal Odo's comm-badge. Poor Odo, the one time that he decides to wear a real one rather than faking it and it ends up being stolen. Then Verad arrives on the station, causing O'Brien to exclaim "You're a Trill!" Very good, Miles. When you see a Chinese man do you point at him and go "Chinese"? I hope not. Along for the ride are two stupid Klingons that shout every line of dialogue. :sigh: I miss Worf and Martok.

    The setup here is outlandish, but once you get past it the episode isn't too bad. It's all about the 90% of Trills that aren't given a symbiont because of their slight personality defects, such as obsessing over having a symbiont so much that you're willing to kidnap people and murder an innocent young woman. Or, worse, having social anxiety issues. John Glover does a good job of playing two personalities that are the same person, and there's some strong interactions between Sisko and Verad Dax where they are both friends and enemies at the same time. There's one odd scene where Jadzia wakes up after the surgery and cries about how alone and scared she feels without the symbiont and all Bashir does it talk about how the surgery went well and how she wont die. When she said "I've never felt so empty", I half expected Bashir to make an inappropriate joke about filling her up, such was the disconnect between what the two characters were saying.

    My biggest issue with this episode remains what I consider to be the misuse of Quark in aiding the mercs onto the station. Sure, Quark didn't know what they were really planning, and he was instrumental in freeing Bashir and Odo, but there's no way he should have gone without any punishment for what he did. If I were Sisko I would have punched him so hard that he would have flown all the way to Ferenginar. As Kira said, Quark crossed the line here and the only way I'm able to forgive the character is to pretend it never happened at all.

    There are some good ideas in this episode, but it's hampered by some poorly thought-out ones. The Circle trilogy was always going to be hard act to follow, but the momentum that has been with the series since Duet finally appears to have run out.

    Form of... an engineering cart: 10
     
  10. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I see a whole host (...no pun intended) of problems with the fact that this episode is all about Verad stealing the Dax symbiont and then they barely touch on how Jadzia takes the theft of the symbiont. That's actually the biggest problem with the character of Jadzia, that they develop Curzon and Dax more than Jadzia. This would have been the opportunity to see Jadzia alone, see what her contribution to Dax was.
     
  11. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, that's the problem with Jadzia's character right there. They sort of made it right with Ezri, but I didn't really appreciate how she was shoved down our throats during the final season.

    EDIT - I thought I'd posted more than that. Oh well. :whistle:

    This was a very average episode, and it hurt the excellent rhythm that we'd had from the opening trilogy. Season two had a huge upswing in quality, and really showed DS9 getting onto its feet as a series. There were still average episodes peppered throghout, like this one, that keep it from being a classic season.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2011
  12. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You can think of Iraq in this instance as Bajor--fractured and with tons of infighting, the US in the place of the Federation, trying to help the Iraqis find stability (think of the time before things started going better in al-Anbar Province), and the Iranians in the place of the Cardassians. Granted, the Iranians never occupied Iraq, but there is no doubt they want to expand their power into that area. And like the Cardassians did in the Circle Trilogy, they covertly fund Iraqi insurgents in hopes of taking down the Iraqi government and indirectly striking at the US.

    So aside from the fact that the Iranians never occupied Iraq, the parallel fits.
     
  13. Shatnertage

    Shatnertage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Since there was really only one invasive procedure performed during this episode, I thought it was a blatant case of false advertising.

    Unless you consider the surgery to restore Dax to Jadzia invasive, in which case I guess it works.
     
  14. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I see where you're going, but for the analogy to work, the Federation would have to be the one who originally destabilized Bajor.

    As for Quark in Invasive Procedures - I don't see how what he did was unforgivable. He tried to smuggle some merchandize; he had no idea they were planning to kidnap everyone, steal the Dax symbiont and murder Jadiza. Once he saw what was really going on, he stepped up and did the right thing. If I were to judge that as unforgivable, I'd also have to judge Odo's actions during the Dominion Occupation the same way.

    And, it's good to see that Trill culture looks down on people with social anxiety just like Human culture does. :p
     
  15. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Shouldn't Odo's actions during the Dominion Occupation have been punished? That was treason.
     
  16. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly, if he gets a pass, why shouldn't Quark get one here. Quark's misdeeds mostly came about through no fault of his, yet Odo knew full well what he was doing.
     
  17. mattyhugh

    mattyhugh Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    But Quark didn't have a closet conversation with Kira off screen. Clearly that makes all the difference.
     
  18. ATimson

    ATimson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I figured that their invasion of the station was one of them too. After all, the title isn't "Invasive Medical Procedures"...
     
  19. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed. Clearly that and the fact that Odo gets to be one of the "heroes" while Quark is relegated to "anti-hero" status is what makes the difference.
     
  20. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Odo thing was stupid too, I'll be criticising that in good time. As for the Quark thing, while he has proven himself useful in certain circumstances, this time his greed has proven itself to be a major security risk and he should be kicked off the station. Intent doesn't matter (and let's not forget that his intent was also a felony), he disabled station security in the middle of a crisis and deserves to have the book thrown at him.

    Also, on Shatnertage's suggestion, there's a new counter for coups d'état.

    Stupid French Things: 1
     

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