TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Eyes

    Eyes Commodore Commodore

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    Ba-boom! Always go for the positives! :techman:

    Also, immature comments are brilliant for me. :lol:

    I loved that this one was so strong. It holds up on repeated viewings, and it makes DS9 feel far bigger than any Season 1 episode did.

    I knew there was a reason I liked Li. He's my kind of guy, gets messed around by everyone when he's really much better than all of them. ;)

    Shame...
     
  2. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree about liking Li Nalas. Even though I didn't really realize it at the time, his mannerisms even influenced the way I wrote my AU version of Dukat (who is a resistance fighter against Bajoran invaders). He was played very well. :)
     
  3. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The Homecoming is jammed pack with politics, action and all sorts, and I like that. But the best bit is Li Nalas explaining to Sisko how he got legendary: 'and all I had done was shot an unarmed Cardassian in his underwear. I'll never forget that look on his face as he died. He was so... embarrassed.'

    That to me is just classic, it would be almost funny if it weren't so serious. Richard Baymer delivered the sarcasm amazingly well!
     
  4. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Circle Trilogy was my first introduction to DS9. There's a reason it hooked me on this series - it's freaking awesome.

    The political atmosphere of these episodes, and this one in particular, are what makes for great Trek. I've always thought that Trek was at it's best when dealing with the politics of it's universe (Journey to Babel, The Defector, just about any political episode of DS9, the Vulcan Trilogy in ENT).

    My only complaint is that they should have delved into politics more deeply and more often than they already did.
     
  5. Gotham Central

    Gotham Central Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This was the point where DS9 really started to push for its own identity. I'm sure that part of the reason they were able to get away with this was because they avoided doing a cliff hanger and did not put a "part 1/2" anywhere near this.I'm sure Berman had to be convinced that each episode stood on its own. I'm also certain that Berman put his foot down after this and said "not so fast" and demanded more stand alones after this. In some ways this was the opening shot of the show runner's litte insurgency against trek orthodoxy requiring stand alone storytelling.
     
  6. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And thank God for that. :techman:
     
  7. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

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    I think the Circle trilogy illustrates the main reason I love season 2 and rank it the third best season of the series. This is when the Star Trek universe became bigger than what was ever shown on TV and DS9 allowed this kind of development. We got out of the episodic nature and into more politics and making various races and stories more interesting and complex. Homecoming was such a great episode to start the series, especially coming off the heels of In the Hands of the Prophets and I'm glad you enjoyed it, TheGodBen. Looking forward to the rest of your reviews.
     
  8. ATimson

    ATimson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The continuity error between parts 2 & 3 regarding the runabout transporter probably helped make that case. ;)
     
  9. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    Me too! I'd bypassed season one and watched this on telly with my friend, who helped get me into Star Trek in the first place. I really enjoyed the trilogy - it was a brilliant start to the season. I remember back then that Kira being removed from DS9, and then not getting back by the next episode, was something I wasn't expecting. Sure, it was 'only' a three episode thing, but it was ambituous, and was an indication of the greater things to come.

    The Homecoming is probably the best episode of the three. The inclusion of Frank Langella and Richard Beymer is particularly fun! Li Nalas is a very interesting soul, by having a hard time accepting his status as a legend. And Bajoran politics is something that I loved about the earlier seasons, as the theme wasn't as prevalent throughout the later years.

    It's all good stuff! :techman: My only problem is that I can't reply in babypoo green. :(
     
  10. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    I agree. Such episodes show a confidence in the setting, and the writers' comfort with their established races and characters. I suppose the reason such episodes are often so memorable is because they don't simply showcase characters or nations but tell genuine stories with them, which also implies the writers actually understand what they're doing, which is naturally a plus. :) This is also, in my opinion, why DS9 is the strongest Trek show - it isn't just based in the Trek universe, there's a sense of real familiarity and comfort with the setting, enough for the writers to be daring and inventive. To stir things up while thickening the brew. That's the true spirit of exploration - not "strange new worlds" but familiar ones and how they interact. The "infinite combinations" aspect of IDIC. I guess what I'm saying is that DS9 embodies the spirit of Trek at its best more successfully than the other shows, and I find it a little amusing that some fans dislike it for "going nowhere" or having little exploration in the usual sense. It's interesting that you mention the Vulcan trilogy of ENT, because I think season four of Enterprise also achieved that level of comfort with its setting, and was by far the show's strongest because of it. A shame it took them so long to get there.
     
  11. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    To be fair, many of the Trek series didn't hit their stride until a few seasons had passed. TNG certainly didn't until it's third season. I would say, despite having some very good earlier episodes, DS9 doesn't hit it's full stride until it's third season as well. And VOY, like ENT, didn't come into it's own until it's fourth season.
     
  12. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    I'd argue that VOY never really came into its own, but that's an entirely different thread. :p
     
  13. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think I started that thread. ;)


    The Circle (****)

    In some ways, this episode is better than the previous one, and in some ways it's not as good. It maintains the breakneck pace of the previous episode (Kira is kidnapped, 5 minutes later she's rescued), but in this case it's not such a big deal because it focuses on fewer areas of the plot than The Homecoming and it doesn't struggle to introduce elements as the plot is already in motion. There's only one major new character, that Bajoran general guy, everyone else is either returning from the previous episode or ITHOTP. It's also necessary that this episode moves swiftly because it's the story of a coup and those have to happen quickly so that nobody will notice. So while this episode is probably more hurried than the previous one, that's a good thing and you don't feel like the story missed any beats.

    But that's partly because some of those beats were removed from the piece. This episode goes from 4-4 time to 3-4 time. (I assure you that the musicians reading this are laughing their asses off.) Li Nalas was the driving force of the previous episode, but in this episode he's just sort of there, not knowing what he's supposed to do. He's a strong character, a man that's willing to sacrifice much for his homeland, but when his home is falling into civil war it's Sisko that takes the lead. The legends about this man's leadership abilities really are exaggerated.

    But what this episode does well is make the Trek universe feel more real by, paradoxically, expanding it by using pre-existing elements. The episode didn't need Bareil and Winn, Bareil could have been a random new character, and the episode already had a villain so it didn't need Winn as an additional one. But by bringing these key players back we not only get more of a feel for Bajor, we also get some more insight into Jaro and what he represents. We also didn't need the involvement of the Cardassians in the coup, it could have been a revolt internal to Bajor, but adding that raises the stakes for the show and reveals the Cardassians to be an insidious, effective villain species. They haven't gone away, you know.

    Also, this episode has the best line of the series so far:
    Form of... a cargo label: 7
     
  14. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    It also has one of the best deliveries of a line; when Winn tells Kira that she can stay as many days as she wishes, "even a week if you like!"
     
  15. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I know...the unctuous delivery of that line was quite something.

    Random observation: when reading the Harry Potter books, I found myself wondering if Dolores Umbridge was based on Kai Winn! :lol: (Of course, I know it's just the same archetype--no more, no less. ;) )
     
  16. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    Oh my god I love that line. Winn is such a bitch! Definitely a love-to-hate character. :lol:

    Kira being captured an rescued just as quikly gave me whiplash, and Li Nalas isn't as much of a presence as he was in The Homecoming. I think because of these points, The Circle isn't quite as strong as what came before.

    Despite this though, the episode does very well maintaining its pace and continuing the strong start to the season. I loved seeing Bareil again in particular! :D (Used to have a big crush on him when younger, which just seems embarrassing these days.)
     
  17. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A couple of other good things about this episode are 1.) that the one major new character - General Krim - is only introduced here so that he doesn't come out of left field when he has to be one of the driving forces in the third episode. Well done, IMO, to lay his groundwork beforehand, if only slightly. 2.) The line about Sisko meeting Krim at a session of the Bajoran Executive Committee. There's no reason for that line to be there, but it adds to the texture and nuance of the situation. It shows that Sisko isn't just running the station, but that he has, in fact, been operating in close contact with the Provisional Government at a fairly high level.

    It's a shame that many of these interactions are only hinted at (most noticeably when Sisko goes before the Chamber of Ministers and tells them, as the Emissary and the commander of DS9, to sign the non-aggression pact with the Dominion) (I would have LOVED to see that speech!), but it's nice that they're giving us these tidbits to show that the situation is more complex than what it may appear.

    Ah, same archetype, but Umbridge didn't thrist for ultimate power like Winn did - she was content to do whatever her superiors told her to do. I also don't remember Winn being so fixated on cats or the color pink. :p
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2011
  18. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Or cutting messages into other people's skin! Nah Umbridge was a Ministry of Magic lackey and sucked up to Cornelius Fudge big time (perhaps literally). But Winn is definitely more strangle-able (if that's a word), simply because she pretends to be good, but she is totally rotten inside.

    Whereas Umbridge was always a hag and was never two-faced. Winn however was a far more complex character, and with virtually every line of dialogue she uttered, I feel like throttling her to death! She is so... patronising, condescending, belittling, devious... (but that's why she is such an amazing character)
     
  19. Sean_McCormick

    Sean_McCormick Captain Captain

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  20. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    :lol:

    In fact I think Quantum Leap finished in May 93, which is after DS9's first season. Surely he's free to make a special horseriding cameo? Although perhaps we should knock a star off TheGodBen if he uses jokes from previous reviews? :D

    I already mentioned it my reply, but, for emphasis, Kai Winn was a brilliant enemy. I just thought I'd throw out the stray thought I had that I can understand why the writers would want to team up her and Dukat in the final arc. I mean we know how it all ended quite poorly, but I can see their thought process. Or at least I can if we pretend that I'm a professional writer for a minute. :biggrin:

    I could pass as a professional TV watcher, perhaps. ;)
     

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