The Typhon Pact

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Elemental, Jul 15, 2009.

  1. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^:eek:

    (And I thought my brilliantly impassioned monologues were long....;))

    Good line. And to continue:

    "You still haven't given up on me...."
    "Never!" :techman:


    And from Dark Knight:

    "People are dying, Alfred! What would you have me do?"
    "Endure, Master Wayne."

    "This city (i.e. Federation) just showed you that it's full of people who are willing to believe in good."
     
  2. rahullak

    rahullak Commodore Commodore

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    Sci: Destroyer of Words :D
     
  3. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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  4. Elemental

    Elemental Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Wow, I stop paying attention to my thread for a while and suddenly people are quoting the Batman movies. :confused:
     
  5. William Leisner

    William Leisner Scribbler Rear Admiral

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    ^ If it's any comfort, you're far from the only person who's stopped paying attention...
     
  6. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Hey has anyone ever Danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?
     
  7. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I see. And that is how you explain Tezrene's comment to Bacco about "it is YOU who are surrounded by a heavily armed hostile power" (emphasis mine)?

    And is everything the Typhon Pact does that could conceivably be regarded as hostile, somehow the Federation's fault? If the Federation can be wrong, and can do things that can cause the Pact to act, then why can the reverse not be true?

    That still seems rather convenient - the use of Sekki to commit crimes that the Pact, as a whole, can quite easily disavow any knowledge of. Quite a readily-made scapegoat, that.

    Oh yes, and the back cover blurbs don't ever make mistakes, do they? ;)

    I would call China a threat, yes. Remember Tiananmen Square? Don't tell me they don't have a hostile intent.

    If that means that no other nation would dare attack it, then it just might be.


    [snip]

    I am well aware of that scene. And I have never advocated that the Federation should openly *attack* the Pact, or that open warfare should break out between the two. (Although if the Pact attacks first, the Federation would of course have every right to defend itself.)

    The Typhon Pact has been compared, in theory, to the Warsaw Pact. That may be a closer analogy than anyone realizes. Are you aware of how often, and how close, the US and the Soviet Union have gotten to flat-out warfare? There were times when we were a hair-trigger away from World War III. Google the name 'Stanislav Petrov' if you don't believe me. (Although, to be fair, Petrov was a Soviet officer who himself prevented war from breaking out. I don't discount the possibility of a Typhon Pact citizen doing the same.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2009
  8. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    That conversation was half exposition and half pissing contest. Tezrene described it as a "heavily-armed hostile power," but she implied that it would have been hostile to Tholia had they not joined. Well, that just doesn't make sense -- the Typhon Pact is based on the idea of unity, not the idea of conquest. It's ultimately not going to be able to gain any real power in the quadrant if it keeps doing the same-old, same-old; it knows full well that wars and conquest have been tried, and produced only moderately large results, whereas cooperation and partnership have turned the Federation into an unrivaled superpower.

    Tezrene was saying that because she was playing mind games with Bacco. If the Pact was actually actively hostile like that, they wouldn't have gone and stopped the Kinshaya fleet that was attacking the Klingons and they wouldn't have apologized. And Tezrene herself wouldn't have allowed the Tholians to take sole blame the way she did.

    I never said it was the Federation's fault, nor did I say that the Tholians' actions were justified, nor did I imply such. What I did say was that, from the Tholians' point of view, they were retaliating for what could quite reasonably be seen as an act of Federation hostility against them. I mean, think about it -- the Federation went and bullied the Ferengi into denying the Tholians access to a fleet of warships the day before the biggest invasion of the Alpha Quadrant in galactic history began.

    That doesn't make what the Tholians did okay -- it makes it understandable. It means that we have to acknowledge that our enemies are not necessarily irrationally hostile or "evil" and acknowledge that "we done wrong" in order to reach a point where peaceful reconciliation is possible. Now, it takes two to tango. If the UFP admits it's done wrong but not the Tholian Assembly, well, the ball's in the Tholians' court. No one's arguing the Tholians aren't jerks.

    But they're not jerks who are impossible to understand. Nor are they jerks who were entirely wrong. Not entirely right, either. It's all a matter of perspective.

    Oh, certainly. I'm not saying the Tholians were right or justified, just understandable (if boneheaded). And it would be completely understandable -- though, in my view, just as boneheaded -- for the UFP to retaliate somehow for the Tholians trying to screw with them.

    But that wouldn't be very conducive to peace on either end, now would it? I do expect better of the Federation than of the Tholians.

    It's entirely possible, but I doubt the Tholians would be willing to take the blame by themselves the way they did if it weren't true. Do the Tholians strike you as being burdened with an over-abundance of loyalty to anyone who isn't Tholian? I doubt they'd be willing to fall on their swords for the Typhon Pact.

    And a Chinese person could easy reply, "I would call the United States a threat, yes. Remember Kent State? Don't tell me they don't have hostile intent." (I should know, since I am about to graduate from Kent State University in a month: Even democratic governments have been known to murder their own citizens for daring to protest.)

    Obviously China is an authoritarian government that's more than willing to crush domestic dissent. It does not logically follow, however, that they must therefore constitute a hostile enemy in the realm of foreign policy.

    There is no such thing as being so powerful that no other nation will dare attack you. A casual glance at history will reveal that all of the great empires in history faced enemies more than willing to attack them at every stage of their history. In fact, it often creates more enemies than you might otherwise have through the process of blowback.

    Dominance is not conducive to national security.

    Of course.

    But, then, that's sorta the issue: You've been approaching the Pact from the presumption, unbacked by evidence, of uniform hostility and aggression on their part. You've approached the issue with the unquestioned premise that if the Typhon Pact does well, the Federation must do poorly. You have begun from the premise that the Typhon Pact represents an existential threat to the Federation and moved from there -- even though that is by no means a certainty.

    You can't forge a good relationship with someone if you refuse to accept that others are operating in good faith. That kind of attitude towards a foreign society can lead to a great deal of unnecessary conflict -- and can influence an otherwise peaceful society to behave in a hostile manner without real justification.
     
  9. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Except for these guys, of course. ;)

    That does work for both the Federation *and* the Pact, of course.
     
  10. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Technically, that's a matter of being so smart that no one will dare attack you, not so powerful. ;)

    But I'm inclined to dismiss that as ludicrous propaganda. Everyone gets attacked at one point or another.
     
  11. EmperorKalan

    EmperorKalan Commander Red Shirt

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    It may be that one emerges from the group, and not necessarily one of the major players. Most of the Pact members likely have conquered or subordinated species under their thumbs (or whatever) that might try to slip out of that control by being more widely useful. Or the Pact may acquire more "junior" members who are'nt powerful enough to have much influence by strength alone, but manage to extend their influence by acting as peacekeepers and feather-unrufflers.
     
  12. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Hey...here's a question that (hopefully) should bring some folks' attention back to the thread:

    If the Typhon Pact is liken to the Warsaw Pact, can we then imply that the former Romulan Empire is the new Germany?

    (RSE--East Germany, Warsaw Pact/Typhon Pact; IRS--West Germany, NATO/Khitomer Alliance)

    And...considering Tholia's apparent hostility to the UFP (read, the ambassador's saber-rattling to Bacco), and (during the Cold War) the Soviet Union's hostility to the USA, Is Tholia the new USSR?
     
  13. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not unless the Tholians want to have the Romulans shoving disruptors in their faces cause I don't see the Romulans or ANY member of the Pact will follow the lead of the isolationist Tholians especially the Breen who were part of a bigger power even if it was only temporary.

    Also the problem with likening the situation with the RSE to East Germany is East Germany wasn't exactly a voluntary member of the Warsaw Pact since they were un Soviet occupation at the time and the Romulan Star Empire willingly joined the Typhon Pact.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
  14. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So...who would you say is the Soviet-Union Alpha-Dawg of the Typhon Pact--if there is one?
     
  15. LutherSloan

    LutherSloan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't think there is. The two most 'powerful' empires, the Romulan Star Empire and the Tholian Assembly, can't compare in power by themselves to the Federation. At least in theory Russia could compare with the US, but as we know a lot of it was bluster and deception.
     
  16. BrotherBenny

    BrotherBenny Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Typhon Pact, looking at it as powers forming together for mutual benefit, are very much like the European Union. Not in antagonism to the US (which is very much like the Federation, member states/worlds, standard set of laws, etc) but in addition to it. If you look at Star Trek's admittedly sketchy history prior to United Earth, there are supposed to be only a handful of small unions, The European Hegemony, the African Union or whatever it was called, the United Arab Emirates, and so on and so forth, but these unions did not form the UE. Each individual country signed up and, with Australia supposedly being the last hold out until 2150.

    Who knows, by the end of the 25th century, the individual members of the Typhon Pact, the Klingon Empire, might have all signed up for a new alliance, with each member world of the Federation doing the same for a true Pax Galactica.

    But it will take time.
     
  17. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Do we really have any evidence to base that assumption on? The Romulans are an empire, so presumably they have various subject worlds in addition to Remus (though aside from the Dominion, Star Trek has always been very bad at depicting empires in a way that's actually imperial, i.e. multicultural under a single ruling power). We know from A Singular Destiny that the Kinshaya are conquerors and recently enslaved the Kreel. But we have no evidence that any of the others have subject races, do we? Maybe the Tholians; the Early Voyages comic gave them a subject people called the Chakuun who were their shock troops in battle, but that hasn't been followed up anywhere and may no longer be true in the 24th century. There's no reason to believe the Gorn are a conquering power as a rule; the usurpers' attempt at conquest in The Gorn Crisis was presented as an exception to the norm. As for the Breen, they were fairly isolationist before allying with the Dominion; they seem like the sort who keep to themselves rather than going around subjugating other species. And the Tzenkethi's state is called a Coalition, which suggests a voluntary, more or less equal partnership of member states.


    That's taking the analogy way, way too literally. The idea is not to do some slavishly exact copy of recent Earth history.
     
  18. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    The Vanguard novel Summon the Thunder established that the Tholians in the 23rd Century had conquered a number of alien species and routinely used them as slave labour. We do not know if this practice has continued into the 24th Century, though.

    To be fair, the People's Republic of China and Democratic People's Republic of Korea both sound like they ought to be democratic, but that ain't the cause. But, yeah, there's no evidence that the Gorn or Tzenkethi have histories of imperialism, and no evidence of imperialism on the part of the Breen prior to the Dominion War.
     
  19. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Just sayin', Chris....

    After all, I seem to recall one of TPTP comparing The Dominion War to WWII, with the UFP as the USA, the Klingon Empire as the UK (:wtf:), and the Romulans as the USSR....

    None of those three are quite copies of their "counterparts"...but you get the idea....
     
  20. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which is *my* job, by the way. :lol: ;)
     

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