The Typhon Pact

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Elemental, Jul 15, 2009.

  1. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Hmmm, yes, you're right. I do notice, though, that the one Typhon Pact member not so far mentioned as the focus of a book is the Kinshaya. Perhaps KRAD will bring us the Kinshaya-Klingon book in 2011? :)
     
  2. Paris

    Paris Commodore Commodore

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    ^Hopefully. Maybe the story will be in some type of Typhon Pact anthology...
     
  3. Elemental

    Elemental Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Thanks for the replies. There are some good points I hadn't considered already.
    But why all join up to side against them (the Federation)? The Feds were the ones who planted the idea of joining up in the first place. Why not join against the Tholians or the Breen? I find it very curious how a group such as the Romulan Star Empire who fought against the Dominion and suffered severe losses would so readily form an alliance with a group like the Breen who who sided with the Dominion. Storywise, it will be interesting to see a further rift growing between the IRS and RSE... but it does seem to stretch credibility a tad to suddenly be sharing currency with the Breen. I know people have pointed out that many real world nations forged alliances following wars with one another, but A Singular Destiny, pretty well the sole purpose of the Typhon Pact seems to be to serve as a thorn in the Federation's side (messing with their refugee locations, etc.). Why would the RSE join the Pact when they seem to have many more reasons to be against the Breen than against the Federation?
     
  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Remember the "root beer" scene in DS9? The Federation has been the dominant political and cultural power in the quadrant for a long time, and a lot of other states see it as a bullying imperialist state, no matter how benevolent it believes itself to be. If you've been an also-ran to a more powerful entity for a long, long time, if you're sick of the way they condescend to you and try to convince you they know better than you do, then you're not likely to want to join forces with them. The Federation has a way of assimilating or at least domesticating the cultures that join it, and these groups don't want to end up drinking the root beer.

    The RSE has a much longer history of antagonism with the Federation than it does with the Breen, so their opinion on the relative number of reasons might differ.

    The idea of the Pact is not merely to be a thorn in the UFP's side, but to be an alternative to the UFP, a counterbalance and competitor. So it's attracted powers that have antagonistic motives toward the UFP (like the Tholians) or toward the Klingons (like the Kinshaya) as well as those who have nothing specific against the UFP but wish to be strong apart from it (such as the Gorn). But the disruptions caused in ASD were actions taken by the individual members of the Pact, and halted and apologized for by the Pact as a whole. It's essential to keep in mind that the Pact, at this point, is more an idea, an aspiration, than a truly united front. There is no such thing at this stage as an action taken by the Typhon Pact -- only actions taken by the individual nations that have agreed to try to work together as the Typhon Pact. And those nations have their own agendas, their own expectations of what they want to get out of the Pact -- and who's in charge of the Pact. And yes, the members do have some bad blood between them. All that will be dealt with in the books.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2009
  5. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So...what are the odds that the "Khitomer" allies become the new NATO, to counter the Typhon Pact (which the TrekMovie article has already likened to the Warsaw Pact)?

    Next thing you know...COLD WAR!
     
  6. Elemental

    Elemental Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ok. I guess I had interpretted those actions as sanctioned by the Pact as a whole and not just the Tholians.

    I agree with everyone who says this should make for an interesting foil for the Federation and serve us with more political drama than strictly drama based on conflict (which we've seen quite a lot of recently). I always felt the Dominon and the Borg fit the bill as an opposite to the Federation. Whereas the Federation integrates others into their overall mosaic fabric, the Borg assimilated and was more of a melting-pot. And whereas the Federation was composed of a multitude of worlds working as equals, the Dominion was composed of a multitude of worlds but all in the service of the ruling Founders. But, I guess the Pact is unique for being even more similar to the Federation in many ways.

    I'm just disappointed that Voyager can't be worked into this series. Poor old Voyager. First given a side-line role in Destiny and now shunned out of the Pact. ;) In all seriousness, I'm very interested in the new direction Voyager is headed (being a little over halfway through Full Circle).
     
  7. LutherSloan

    LutherSloan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's what it's looking like.

    I think odds are high that the Cardassians will opt to ally with the Federation, if only because they followed through on the agreement in good faith arranged by Bacco and Garak (Cardassians join the Azure Nebula fleet, UFP cedes three worlds to them). My guess is that they will respect this, moreso considering that the UFP probably needed those worlds thanks to the heavy losses in the Borg attack.

    I really have doubts that the Tholians will be in this very long. They absolutely hate outsiders and have no interest in contact. Right now they are pissed that the UFP strongarmed them, but if things don't go well with this Pact, they will likely give up and go back into isolation.

    The fact that the RSE and IRS are on opposing sides in an even bigger galactic split makes it even MORE likely that there will be some kind of civil war between the two powers (the shooting kind). I'm sure in her arrogance Tal'Aura will try and reclaim some of the IRS' worlds by force, prompting a larger conflict.

    I think that this thread has established pretty clearly what the various motivations are for each of the Typhon Pact powers to join. However, I feel like there are even more weaknesses in the Typhon Pact's membership than in the Coalition of Planets.

    Here's a basic comparison of the traits of each world/species (as we know of):

    Coalition of Planets
    -Humans: Explorers, diplomats, thinkers
    -Vulcans: Thinkers, philosophers, semi-pacifists
    -Andorians: Warlike, passionate, value honor
    -Tellarites: Passionate

    Typhon Pact
    -Tholians: Paranoid, xenophobic
    -Romulans: Paranoid, scheming
    -Breen: Warlike, expansionistic
    -Gorn: Warlike, value honor
    -Tzenkethi: Warlike, not much else known
    -Kinshaya: Warlike, religious, expansionistic

    I was always under the impression that the main reason that the UFP was eventually formed was because the humans helped to balance out the other species. The Vulcans and the Andorians had been basically at war until humans stepped onto the scene. Their positive relations with both sides helped to ease the tensions. Same goes for the Andorians and the Tellarites, who were frequently antagonistic towards each other.

    The TP doesn't have one species that keesps the others from going at each other's throats when things go bad. My guess is that the Romulans are already hedging their bets so that if/when the TP falls apart, they get the biggest advantage of the group out of the whole thing.
     
  8. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    I think that those are gross over-simplifications -- stereotypes, really -- of the founding Coalition/Federation worlds. For one thing, you're attributing diplomacy to Humans as though it's some inherent trait. It's not. The rise of United Earth as a diplomatic power -- an "honest broker" -- came about specifically as the result of the efforts of Jonathan Archer and of the policies of Prime Minister Nathan Samuel -- policies that Samuel explicitly framed in self-interested terms when he noted in "Demons" that Earth needed alliances with other worlds to survive. That policy would absolutely not have been possible had Earth already developed any sort of interstellar reputation -- it was only possible because they were the new kids on the block.

    You're also forgetting that during most of the 22nd Century, the Vulcans were in no way pacifistic -- they were, if anything, an imperial power that went about installing puppet governments that would bow to Vulcan's whims in return for Vulcan military protection and resources.

    And Tellarite culture is not so much based on passion as it is on the idea that truth and good decision-making can only be found as a result of rigorous argumentation. Passion is a part of it, but passion is a part of the rest of them, too.

     
  9. LutherSloan

    LutherSloan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think, at least as we saw in 'Enterprise', it's accurate to say that humans were relatively diplomatic. None of the early conflicts between United Earth and anyone else were really Earth's fault, as far as we can tell. The Klingons obviously just distrust humans and think they are weak. The Suliban were being manipulated by another power, same with the Xindi. The Romulans were afraid that Earth could unite the rest of the area's powers (they were right) and become a possible threat to the Empire.

    I was basically listing several tendencies that these various species (primarily their governments) have had in the past. I mean, is it not accurate to say that the Romulans' scheming has caused one major war and a few other smaller conflicts? I think that's fair. The Breen are still pretty unknown, but the fact that they have joined up with a larger power to fight the Federation, not once but TWICE, makes me think that they prefer war to diplomacy or negotiation. The Tholians have a history of hostility towards the Federation, but have yet to actually go to war (assuming that doesn't happen later in the Vanguard series). The Gorn are very territorial from what we have seen, but were basically at peace with the UFP until now (although you can argue that they haven't done anything to jeopardize that yet). So little has been written on the Tzenkethi that it's the hardest of all these species to know what their general relationship with the UFP is. I'm not entirely sure about the Kinshaya, since they have only appeared recently with any frequency in Trek Lit. But it seems like they are not that peaceful.
     
  10. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Are you talking about the part where Humans tried to hijack the Martian verteron array and threatened to destroy the United Earth capital city to force aliens off of Earth? Or the part where the Vulcan and Andorian ambassadors were complaining that there were anti-alien protests going on in every major city during that same crisis? Maybe you're talking about the part where violent assaults on aliens were established to have gone up after the Xindi incident, to the point where Phlox was afraid to walk the streets at night?

    The UE government did assume the rule of interstellar honest broker, but it's important to remember that Humans weren't a magic wand that made all the old fights go away just because of how awesome they were.

    Sure. But the same is true of the Klingons, Cardassians, Ferengi, and even the Federation (Tezwa).

    I'm not contesting that. The Breen are clearly out to establish their interstellar might since 2375. But it's important to bear in mind that they don't have a long history of expansionism or warmongering.

    Or, rather, have a history of reacting badly to what they perceive as incursions into their space and to things they think will cause the Shedai to be revived (and with good reason for not wanting to see the Shedai revived).

    Articles of the Federation established that the Tzenkethi government basically likes to use the UFP as its scapegoat for everything that goes wrong, but that they still have diplomatic relations with foreign states and that their newsmedia can be viewed by Federates, implying relatively open borders. That's why I equate them with modern-day Iran.
     
  11. captcalhoun

    captcalhoun Admiral Admiral

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    I DRINK YOUR ROOT BEEER!
     
  12. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Sci's analysis is excellent. You can't truly understand an entire civilization with a blanket stereotype. Human nature includes everything from Gandhi to Hitler, from Kirk to Khan. Vulcan nature includes everything from Surak to V'Las. We've seen some friendly Tholians in Vanguard and elsewhere. We've seen Romulan dissidents who sincerely want to reunite with Vulcan and don't share their government's attitudes. And so on. Any blanket generalization you can make describes, at best, the prevailing attitudes of those who currently hold political or cultural dominance within the society. But every society has its dissenters, its internal disputes and disagreements. Any ruling ideology is going to have competition within the society and will sometimes give way to it. Heck, look how quickly the ideology of the United States government has changed since last year.

    There's no such thing as a warlike species or a paranoid species or a diplomatic species. Those are racial stereotypes and are wrong on the face of it. There are only civilizations or nation-states whose current leaders or prevailing cultural mores are warlike or paranoid or diplomatic or whatever. But cultures tend to go in cycles and regimes inevitably change.
     
  13. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^I can barely believe I'm saying this, but...I agree with Sci.

    With the exception of the Romulans, we don't really know that much about these Typhon-Pact nations. The Sundred had some nice info on the Tholians, but not enough to count as "world-building". So to assume we know enough about these cultures to pass judgements is quite...hasty.

    Still...LutherSloan also has a nice point--the interactions these powers have had with the UFP have generally been hostile....
     
  14. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Thanks, Christopher, Rush. A few things, though...

    To a point and within specific contexts. But it's important to remember two things:

    1. The Federation has had on-going dealings with all of these states save the Holy Order. It's exchanged ambassadors with the Breen, Gorn, Tholians, Romulans, and Tzenkethi. That means that the vast majority of the time, Federation interaction with them has been non-violent, if sometimes adversarial. When we saw the Tholians attacking the Enterprise or the Gorn hitting Cestus III, those were the exceptions to the rule, not the normal (or only) interactions the Federation had with them.

    2. In some of those hostile interactions, the Federation was the aggressor -- or, at least, was perceived to be such by the foreign state in question. Take, for example, the Federation's establishment of a colony on a Gorn-claimed world. The Gorn likely believed themselves under threat of imminent invasion from a vast empire they had never before encountered. Or take the Federation's deliberate decision to move into the Taurus Reach to try to scavenge technology from the Shedai -- a move that cannot fail to strike anyone who knows how dangerous the Shedai are as being anything other than deliberately provocative if not out and out aggressive and threatening to other cultures. Or, for that matter, take the Enterprise's and Excalibur's deliberate invasions of Tholian space in 2269 and 2298. Would a Tholian be accurate and fair, therefore, in criticizing the Federation as warlike and aggressive?
     
  15. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^Again, excellent points, Sci. The Gorn in particular have had mostly friendly relations with the Federation as far as we can tell. They had a violent first contact due to a misunderstanding, with the Gorn acting to defend themselves against what they believed were invaders. After that, though, relations seemed to go pretty well. They must have, since the Gorn actually ceded the Cestus system to the Federation at some point. If they were a hostile power, there's no way that would've happened (since the UFP wouldn't engage in territorial conquest). The one instance of conflict we've seen since "Arena" was in The Gorn Crisis, but that was with a militant faction that assassinated the sitting regime and was then defeated by Picard. If anything, the Gorn are indebted to the Federation for that.

    As for the others, just because we've seen periods of conflict in the past doesn't mean those nations are defined solely by enmity. Look at real history. Over the course of its existence, the United States has at various times been at war with Great Britain, France, Mexico, the Philippines, Germany, Italy, Japan, and other states that are now our allies.
     
  16. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Not that there's much to add to what others have posted above, and this is rehashing old points anyway, but remember the interactions between some of the Typhon Pact members have also been generally hostile in the past. Past hostility has already been overcome there, or at least buried in the interests of toleration. Breen and Romulans, for example, have shown great disdain for one another in several stories and found themselves on opposite sides of a major armed conflict, too. Yet they have evidently decided to put that behind them or overlook it in order to work together. Past interactions aren't necessarilly that meaningful anymore; the Borg invasion shook things up too much. Judging post-2293 Klingon/Federation relations on the basis of past interactions is not too meaningful. Judging post-2154 Andorian/Vulcan relations on the basis of past interactions means little too. Or, the other way around: judging post-2153 perceptions of the Guardians by the Xindi government(s?) on the basis of prior perceptions would be flat-out foolish. Major, rather sudden events simply changed the galactic political landscape too much for the state of things in the past to truly matter to a majority of people. The Borg invasion was another such sudden change. Placing too much faith in an analysis of past interactions might be a mistake. :)



    :)
     
  17. rahullak

    rahullak Commodore Commodore

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    ^
    I agree with Sci and the others on the nature of the Pact. Sorry to go off-topic, but I was wondering if the Founders/Dominion would have any role to play in the politics of the Alpha Quadrant?
     
  18. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    We'll have to wait and see what the DS9 books do with the Dominion in the time between "Olympus Descending" and the Typhon Pact series. The last time we saw the Dominion
    the Great Link had dissolved and each Founder had left to seek isolation, with only Odo and Laas to hold the Dominion together. We can't even be sure there will BE a Dominion in 2382...
    :)
     
  19. rahullak

    rahullak Commodore Commodore

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    ^Thanks!
     
  20. LutherSloan

    LutherSloan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Don't you mean the Defiant? Or am I missing something?
     

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