"The Three Saaviks"

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by alpha_leonis, Oct 31, 2012.

  1. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If Roddenberry disliked the story enough, he might have asked that his name be removed from the credits.

    Don't know really.

    :)
     
  2. t_smitts

    t_smitts Captain Captain

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    I've been hearing and reading fans ask "why didn't they just use Saavik?" for years.

    Novels aren't canon. As for other examples, I'm not sure if there were that many at the time they were making the movie. There was arguably Ben Finney (still not sure how a guy that nuts managed to hide for years), arguably Admiral Mark Jameson, Captain Maxwell, and Admiral Nora Satie.

    It wasn't until later that we got Kennelly, Pressman, Leyton, Dougherty, Ross in "Inter Arma...", Ransom, the Maquis, and Section 31.
     
  3. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Fully aware that "novels aren't canon", but I can tell you that Roddenberry did get annoyed with the number of ST novel proposals and RPG materials that were involving the plotline of Starfleeters-gone-bad, to name a few off the top of my head: "Death's Angel", "Dreadnought!", "Battlestations!" and the cancelled "The Lost Years Saga: The War Virus". Diane Carey had a proposed third Piper novel canned, too, and a sequel duology, "The Federation Mutiny".

    In TNG, there was also "Conspiracy".

    That was always his threat, from ST II onwards; that if he did not approve his name would be withheld from the credits as a sign to the fans.

    He was gravely ill at the time of ST VI but responded via memo to an early script, the one where he doubted the wisdom of making Saavik a traitor, and to Kirk's anti-Klingon attitude. He watched the work print in the Paramount theatrette from his wheelchair with his carer/chauffeur, Ernie Over, and was essentially taken straight to hospital. He never came home.

    Rumours abounded that he "raced to his office" and started dashing off memos and making angry phone calls, but Ernie himself once told me that Roddenberry was too ill to do anything like that and GR's only comment on ST VI that day was, "I'm sure the Star Trek fans will like it."
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  4. Captain Atkin

    Captain Atkin Commander Red Shirt

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    I like Valeris as a character more than either of the two Saaviks. For a Vulcan, she had more carisma on screen than the other two did. I also liked the hair and the hairband that the actress designed. She was more than just Saavik 2.0, in my eyes. Kim Cattrall did a good job giving Valeris her own identity.
     
  5. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He also had an in-person meeting with Nick Meyer that ended badly. Meyer told him off, cursed him out, and stormed out.

    Oddly, Roddenberry never had a meeting with Harve Bennett about the films during his tenure on the films. Bennett has said that he wanted to talk stories out with Roddenberry, but Roddenberry always refused, preferring to do things by paper.

    But someone did write a memo with requested changes after that screening. There's also someone who made a statement to the Okudas that Star Trek VI had what Roddenberry considered "apocryphal" elements (mentioned in their introduction in A History of the Future). Personally, I've always thought the person responsible for both the memo and the "apocryphal" designation was mostly likely Richard Arnold based on certain things in his infamous interview with Tim Lynch.
     
  6. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Richard Arnold did tell us at a Brisbane convention that GR considered "parts of ST V to be apocryphal" (and repeated it in "ST Communicator") and then I recall reading that the same had supposedly been said about ST VI. But, based on Ernie's version of the timing of events, I could never see how there was time for a GR memo to be written on that topic. However, I guess it's possible that GR's feelings about ST VI had been made very clear from his original impressions of the shooting script, and that RA already knew what GR would be saying about the movie itself before he saw it. No idea if RA was actually at that theatrette screening, but I wouldn't be surprised.
     
  7. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The weird thing about Valeris/Saavik is if anyone's seen the drafts of the script where the character is still named Saavik, there's no real dialogue changes - Saavik is introduced in exactly the same way as someone who did really well in graduating from Starfleet.

    And I did like Kim Cattrall as Valeris. Sure, having a character from earlier movies might have had more emotional resonance, but she really worked in the role.
    Whose story originally dealt with an actual conspiracy and only became about space aliens infiltrating the brains of Starfleet personnel because Roddenberry wasn't a fan of conspiracy plots.
     
  8. therealsb63

    therealsb63 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    From what I've always understood, Kirstie Alley was the first choice to play Saavik in STVI:TUC. There are two different stories on this, one is she was too involved with "Cheers" to meet the STVI production schedule and she had to decline, the other is she asked for more than what Paramount was willing to pay for her to do the movie, and the offer was withdrawn.

    Robin Curtis, as noted, was never approached for the part.

    I never knew Cattrall refused to take the part as "Saavik #3"...a shame, because if you tune out the name Valeris and pretend she's Saavik, the part works so much better and has so much more impact, especially Spock's almost uncontrolled anger toward her.
     
  9. starburst

    starburst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Especially if they carried through the intention that there was some form of attraction between them during STII, even if they had decided not to act on it by the time they arrived on Genesis his death would have brought up those thoughts and feelings

    We did get something different though, Saavik was the Enterprise science officer when they left space dock and switched to be the navigator when Spock gave Kirk command. Then on the Grissom we saw her again as a science officer.

    Its possible these roles are similar to a degree as we saw Chekov take the science position during TOS and STIII when Spock wasnt there.

    Being a helmsman was a slightly different take, although there was a comic set where Sulu first took command of the Excelsior and Saavik temporarily replaced him even using the same "I volunteered" line.

    If they had been able to get Alley back then it would have made the movie much better, I always liked her version of the character, Curtis just seemed to be there but that could be down to Nimoy Vulcanising the character where as Meyer wanted her more emotional than Spock.
     
  10. CoveTom

    CoveTom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It was not the difference in actresses, it was the difference in directors. Meyer originally directed Alley with the idea that Saavik was half-Vulcan/half-Romulan. The scenes that stated that were ultimately left on the cutting room floor, but that's what his direction was based on.

    Nimoy then directed Curis as a full Vulcan with virtually no expression of emotion what-so-ever. Which is fine, except that since Saavik the character had already been established in TWOK, it seems a bad choice to make such a drastic character change, particularly when you're already changing actresses.
     
  11. starburst

    starburst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thats what I said, or at least intended to say.

    Perhapse Nimoy didnt care for the half Vulcan half Romulan backstory, in the end the character from TWOK was much better than that from TSFS.
     
  12. Blip

    Blip Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Feh. I always found Alley to be overrated myself, and the only "emotion" I gleaned from her portayal (beyond the crying at the end) was one of arrogance.

    Got to admit I also thought she looked a bit frumpy in the uniform, and those eyebrows were awful, which sways my opinion somewhat. Overall though I still found Curtis' v2.0 to be more attractive and less "hammed up" in her delivery.

    Still, would have liked to see Curtis return in TUC.
     
  13. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Nimoy: "Colder. Say it colder."

    He also forbade Curtis from watching ST II.
     
  14. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You've conflated two stories here. :)

    Alley asked for more on Star Trek III than several more established cast members were asking for. Paramount passed and, to Alley's chagrin, wouldn't even negotiate a lower price with her agent.

    For Star Trek VI, Cheers was the issue as the filming dates would have conflicted.

    However, her unwillingness to appear in "Cause and Effect" a year later (at most half a day's work) leads me to wonder if she simply wasn't interested in a Star Trek appearance at that point in her life.
     
  15. AggieJohn

    AggieJohn Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    From what i herd it wasn't Alley herself that asked for a massive increase in salary for ST III it was her agent. Nimoy was really happy with Alley and she loved being in STII. Paramont did not even counter offer for STIII. I don't know about STVI, but I could imagine after being not signed for STIII and finding out that she would have been a traitor I could see her passing, but I cant confirm that or anything.

    The sadness was that they did not add the sequel addendum to her original contract. That is 101 for new stars.
     
  16. Kirby

    Kirby Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    THERE ARE... FOUR... SAAVIKS!!!
     
  17. nightwind1

    nightwind1 Commodore Commodore

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    I know I sure didn't care for Curtis in the part.
     
  18. therealsb63

    therealsb63 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Thanks for the clarification...I sit corrected!

    *tips hat*
     
  19. doubleohfive

    doubleohfive Fleet Admiral

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    I seem to recall (I could be wrong) that Larry Nemecek's TNG Companion indicates having Alley appear in "Cause and Effect" was aborted due mainly to scheduling conflicts with cheers also. I've heard rumors that she'd been unwilling to appear on Frasier because it was a show about a psychiatrist, and Alley, a Scientologist, was opposed to that, but I'd never heard she was uninterested/unwilling to do the TNG cameo.
     
  20. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Thank goodness. Two Piper novels were two too many.

    I don't like Kim Cattrall as an actress, I don't like her voice, and her dumb hairstyle and hairband made her look like a Vulcan with a fat face.

    SO THERE. [​IMG]

    Not even Sarek, a full Vulcan, was as emotionless as a cardboard box, which is basically how Robin Curtis played Saavik. For me, Saavik is Kirstie Alley or nobody.
     

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