The Son'a

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by The Overlord, Sep 24, 2013.

  1. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This completely ignores many other intricacies of applying law, like statutes of limitation and the fact that states very often refuse to enforce the laws of other states when they disagree with them. To suggest that the Federation would actively rely on an old Romulan charge that was never made, and possibly never even existed, in order to evict an entire planet without any attempt at discussion is plainly absurd.

    Yes, you've mentioned this before. You continue to ignore the fact that the Baku possession of the Briar patch planet very clearly *does* meet your time requirements, and you yet again refuse to name any other requirement for adverse possession which they supposedly do not meet.

    Whether Cestus III meets those time requirements, I couldn't say. I don't recall if the episode specified how old the colony was.

    I am reading the transcript right now. Here's the descriptions I find of the Baku history:

    "[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]We came here from a solar system on the verge of self-annihilation, ...where technology had created weapons that threatened to destroy all life. A small group of us set off to find a new home, ...a home that would be isolated from the threats of other worlds. ...That was three hundred and nine years ago."

    Talking about the benefits of isolation, but no mention of hiding.

    "[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]We've always known that to survive, we had to remain apart. It hasn't been easy. Many of the young people want to know more about the offland. ...They're attracted to stories of a faster pace of life.[/SIZE][/FONT]"

    [/SIZE][/FONT]More about isolation, still nothing about hiding.

    And that's it. What do you know? The film does not, in fact, say anything about the Baku hiding.
    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]
    This is also the only reference at all to the Federation's knowledge of the Baku's origins, making his original disregard (before the discovery of their level of knowledge) for the Prime directive still pretty inexcusable, since the prime directive is about prewarp civilizations, not just prewarp civilizations that still exist on their original homeworld. Something which someone clearly seemed to agree with, considering the Federation efforts at keeping their existence a secret from the Baku.


    Actually, Picard said the planet is in Federation Space, and Dougherty said 'We have the planet', a fairly ambiguous statement in the context of the film, after which Picard tried a few other tacks of argument before plainly stating: "We are betraying the principles upon which the Federation was founded."[/SIZE][/FONT]

    And no one at any point mentioned anything about how the Briar Patch supposedly became Federation space, nor did anything to refute the Baku's statement to have been living on the planet for 309 years: longer than the Federation has existed.

    If there are any trespassers in this scenario, it's the Federation.

    Dougherty claimed they would 'help' billions. In the process of covering his own ass. His main concern is the particles ability to 'double lifespans', which means your whole song and dance about the great medical benefits is also not in the film. So the Federation is violating its principles solely for the benefit of living a little longer, despite the fact that they already benefit from more or less the maximum natural human lifespan. According to Dougherty, whose word is the only source of a whole lot of the arguments you're making.

    He's also the only one who claims the Federation government has any real knowledge of the operation, but he still seems awfully uncertain of that same government's reaction if the Enterprise manages to get a message through.

    And you continue to avoid answering any inconvenient questions. I noticed your post contains no source for your repeatedly claimed 'fact' that the planet belonged to the Klingons and the Romulans before the Federation

    lol.
    You must really hate eminent domain.[/QUOTE]

    Pretty much.

    I'm well aware there are other opinions. And considering my stated opinion, it should be obvious that I think you have the right to believe in whatever sort of morality you want. I clearly do not agree.

    Considering the actual description of how Dougherty is going to 'help' billions, this argument has no relevance to this discussion.

    No, it doesn't. This is the epitomy of just making up your own facts to avoid answering the actual question. Space is huge and there is no reason whatsoever to believe that every single piece of it is already claimed by some 'great power'. Which means the planet was entirely unattached when the Baku arrived, making their claim to the planet very clearly superior to the Federation's.

    In light of the fact that you have clearly misrepresented a lot of those 'facts' throughout this discussion, I'd suggest you take your own advice and rewatch/reread the film before continuing the discussion.
     
  2. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually eminent domain doesn't work that way

    the legal definition: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/eminent+domain

    and the relevant portion

    In other words no condemnation proceeding (which the federation did not do by the way) no government taking.

    and no Edit_XYZ you don't just get to skip a fracking legal proceeding just because one side thinks their case is air tight seeing as when the prosecution in a murder trial having lots and lots of evidence that the guy did it they still do through the trial, especially since the only out for that is a pore existing agreement (which again the federation did not have).
     
  3. TwoJakes

    TwoJakes Commander Red Shirt

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    Well the Klingon Empire was interested enough in the area to fight the Romulan Empire for it, and win it in battle. Prior to 2270 the area was the Romulan's, when they acquired it (and from whom) is unknown.

    It's impossible to say if the area was unclaimed when the Baku party arrived, it might have been, or the Romulan could have held it at the time, or another interstellar power perchance.

    Would the Baku have expended any effort in ascertaining the exact disposition of the "property" they settled upon? It seems unlikely they would have tried to, it might have advertized their presence.
     
  4. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And yet in the 2150s it was in the general area of Klingon space with no mention of Romulans at all. (and don't try the humans wouldn't know much about the Romulans defense because it was a Klingon database on a captured Klingon ship)

    The lack of cloaked mine fields or other anything else the Romulans would use to show they control an area indicates otherwise not to mention again the lack of mentioning the Romulans in the Klingon database from "The Augments"

    I'm pretty sure they would know if an area belonged to the Romulans the very minute their ship exploded from a cloaked mine or when a Romulan ship decloaked to shoot them considering how territory conscious they've been in the past.

    Not to mention I'm pretty sure the Klingons would have for the third time mentioned a Romulan claim in the area in their database entry.

    Instead all we get is something that sounds like a lack of interest on the Klingons part in the general area, considering how much of a pain in the ass holding the area would be it seems likely they might not have been that interested.

    Hell they probably only fought the Romulans for it so they didn't decide to go after something they did care about plus the possibility of the Romulans using the area to sneak attack them.
     
  5. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    The problem with the Prime Directive Argument is, couldn't the Son'a have used it to keep the Federation from doing anything to stop the Son'a from kicking the Ba'ku off the planet? If the Son'a are really Ba'ku, why couldn't they have used that as a basis to lay claim to the planet and then keep the Federation out by saying its an internal Ba'ku matter.

    It seems like the Son'a could have won by just telling the truth, which makes them pretty ineffective villains.
     
  6. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yes why bring in the Federation when you could just kidnap the Baku yourself?

    And why bring Data and thus 'goody-two-shoes' Picard into it if Dougherty thought he was doing something shady?

    My thoughts are that for some technobabble reason the Sona couldnt just kidnap the Baku or couldn't destroy the planet themselves.

    And Dougherty probably believed the Sona were on the level and thinking maybe the Baku were a bunch of tree huggers. It was only after the Federation study that Dougherty probably twigged that the Sona were not on the up and up.
     
  7. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, since they left the planet for a hundred years, their claim may be a bit weak. Still - it's entirely possible the Federation would decide not to get involved, what with the Dominion war going on at the same time. Maybe the Sona just really didn't understand the Federation very well and were basing their decisions on what they thought the Fed. might do.
     
  8. Richard Baker

    Richard Baker Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    If the Sona were beyond the point of just being on the surface of the planet would help them and they obviously had the ability of harvesting the particles from the rings, why couldn't they have just sent a smaller collector to get what just they needed?
    Orbit on the far side of the planet and the Baku would have no idea they would be there, the Federation would not be involved (I doubt the Federation would detect or care about a small vessel traveling through the Brier Patch, lingering for a couple of hours, then leaving...)
     
  9. TwoJakes

    TwoJakes Commander Red Shirt

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    In Balance of Terror, Kirk took the Enterprise into Romulan Empire space directly opposite a line of Earth outposts, on the section of the border closest to the Romulan Homeworld.

    No "cloaked mines."

    Apparently such mines are far from ubiquitous.

    The Federation and the Sona and were planning to change the particles in the ring into another form for purposes of collection, changing just a small portion might not have been possible. All or nothing.

    The Sona might have recognized that any claim to the planet on their parts (or by the Baku) would be invalid next to the Federation's claim, that least in the Federation Council's eyes.

    They had no desire to have future problems with the Federation, so did not attempt to stand on their own weak claim. Instead they approached the Council and proposed a partnership.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  10. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    yes, this is pretty much it exactly. The PD effectively screws the Baku even MORE than not invoking it would. Given the "twist" at the end, it makes the Son'a out to be complete idiots, because if Ru'afo had just gone to Dougherty and said "this is really our planet as much as the Baku's, and we're inviting you(the federation) to help us," then the CENTRAL DILEMMA IS OVER!

    What a poorly written movie. The big twist actually weakens the case for the Baku even more.
     
  11. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    How is their claim weak? The only reason they left the planet is because they forced out by the Ba'ku and now they are using force to kick the Ba'ku off the planet. So they are doing the same thing the Ba'ku did to them.

    Plus the Son'a really should have studied everything they could have about the Federation before they entered into a alliance with them, it seems like with a little research they would have found out about the PD and then used it to their advantage.

    If the PD prevents the Federation from stopping Cardassia from ravaging Bajor, why wouldn't prevent the Federation from doing anything to stop the Son'a?

    That is why making the Son'a Ba'ku didn't work. If the Son'a were just really evil alien invaders who just wanted to live forever, then they would make more sense as characters.
     
  12. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't really think it was the Prime Directive that prevented the Federation from helping Bajor. It was the fact that the Federation failed to win an overwhelming victory in the Federation/Cardassian war and valued peace more highly than justice for Bajor.
     
  13. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ This. The Federation lacked the mean to simply throw the Cardassians off of Bajor. The Federation had been fighting a multi-year long war with the Cardassians over an area of territorial expansion they both wanted, and the Cardassians were far from push overs in the military realm.


    (OO)
     
  14. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If you buy into the novels, the matter is complicated by the fact that the recognized Bajoran government initially welcomed the Cardassians. By the time the Cardassian intentions became more clear, unfortunately the corrupt officials who'd risen within the government cared more about themselves than the planet and the population in general..I hate to phrase it this way, really I do...didn't or wasn't able to do enough to convince anyone that the government no longer spoke for the people.
     
  15. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    the fact that the Federation was in a war against Bajor's enemy at the time makes it stupider that they didn't intervene to help them. In war, you ally yourself with those who are fighting your opponent. The Federation should have at least been supplying the Bajorans with weapons or something like that.
     
  16. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    How do you know they weren't, at some point, doing just that? The Cardassian war happened almost entirely off screen. The Bajoran resistance certainly didn't seem to have much difficulty getting its hands on weapons.

    But as far as fully 'allying' with them - there would be serious difficulty even finding a bajoran 'government' that wasn't in the Cardassians' pockets and had an even remotely legitimate claim to representing Bajor. The occupation had already been underway for decades and there, afaik, was no remnant left whatsoever of whatever indepedent militia Bajor might have had prior to the Cardassians' arrival. Nothing but informally organized resistance cells who don't even know each other's names.

    So it's hardly surprising that the Federation didn't press the Cardassians on the subject of a planet which seemingly is pretty far away from Federation space when they couldn't even reach a peace agreement that allowed all actual Federation colonies to remain in the Federation.
     
  17. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    Except Picard told a Bajoran leader in the "Ensign Ro" episode, that the invasion of Bajor occurred within Cardassian borders and that is why they didn't get involved. So it seems like it was more of a political decision not get involved, more then anything else.

    Also it seems like that Federation didn't want to get involved in the Klingon Civil War, because it was an internal Klingon matter. Heck, the Federation didn't want to stop the Circle from taking over Bajor, because that was considered an internal Bajoran matter, regardless of Cardassian involvement.

    Again it seems like the Son'a could have just told the truth, claimed it was an internal matter and then the Federation wouldn't have done anything and they would have won. That is why making the Son'a Ba'ku didn't work, it brought up a million plot holes.
     
  18. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Straight out question, why not?

    If the population were to be indigenous to the world this would certainly make a difference. But if the population were immigrants from elsewhere, that wouldn't automatically prevent the Federation from "claiming" a planet as being within their space.

    Both the Federation and the Klingons "claimed" Sherman's Planet ('Tribbles), it wasn't simplistically a matter of who got there first. The Federation and the Cardassian Union fought for years over a piece of territory that they both "claimed," final agreeing to divide it up. In one case, the territory being colonized was already in dispute prior to the Human colonists traveling to the colony planet.

    In the case of the ring planet, the established fact that the planet had a small number of refugee/residents already there doesn't preclude the Federation from viewing the planet as being within their space, and a part of Federation territory. The Baku mere presence on the surface did confer upon them ownership and sovereignty of the planet.

    It made no difference if they (simplistically) "got there first."

    The Federation Council's decision to order the removal of the Baku would indicate that the Council didn't view the Baku as possessing sovereignty over the planet.

    I believe only Picard (and his crew) were initially under the impression that the Baku were e natives, and that didn't last long. Dougherty was fully aware that the Baku were not indigenous to the ring planet, meaning the Federation Council (from whom Dougherty received his orders) was also fully aware.

    :devil:
     
  19. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Obviously, there isn't anything that automatically prevents anyone from claiming anything. The point, however, is the Federation's rules are supposed to be a little more fair-minded than 'want, take, have'. The Baku didn't just get there first - they lived there for over 300 years, from before the Federation even existed. For the Federation to even entertain the idea that their claim isn't valid just because they didn't originally evolve there is absurd. Especially since the Federation itself consists for a large part of planets whose populations evolved elsewhere.

    There's quite a difference between warring parties refusing to recognize each other's claims and building competing settlements in the same region and the Federation refusing to recognize the Baku's claim because, well, just because.

    And exactly what does, then? By this standard, any colony can be uprooted for any reason.

    Then it would make no difference if Federation colonies were torn apart by enemy powers who wanted their territory. Yet, it clearly does make a difference. The only reason the Federation's actions here didn't result in a war is because the Baku were too small a community and disliked using technology.

    1) We really have no clear idea how the Council works. This mission could've been approved solely on the recommendation of some sub-committee fully stacked with Dougherty's political buddies.

    2) Determining whether the Baku have sovereignty or not should not be the responsibility of a body which has a vested interest in a 'negative' outcome, legally or morally.

    3) We only even have Dougherty's word that the mission is even really approved by the Council at all. He certainly seems extremely nervous about the idea of the Enterprise contacting the Council itself to denounce the mission.
     
  20. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Okay, by that reasoning the determination could not be made by the Baku either. Or the Sona.

    Would you like to suggest a neutral third party?

    We only have Anij's word that the Baku have been on the planet for three centuries.

    I saw no nervousness.

    Dougherty's? My take is that he was brought in only after the Council made the decision to proceed, and he would have been assigned by Starfleet Command.

    Ensigns of Command. Humans (simplistically) got there first, but this didn't grant them ownership or sovereignty over the planet. As it turns out, the planet was in someone else space.

    It's important to remember that the Baku were being removed solely to prevent them from being killed by the harvesting of the particles. If the harvesting process wasn't going to kill the Baku, likely no effort would have been made to move them.

    But the Federation also isn't a bunch of pushovers, just because the pretty tree-hugging white people are all soft and defenseless, doesn't mean that the Federation now has to back off.

    If might doesn't make right, can't the same thing be said about being weak.

    The particles will help billions. Not several hundred in a quaint little village ... billions. The fact is the Federation is ultimately the altruistic party here, the Baku (once Picard told them the truth) were being selfish by not voluntarily leaving. They were earlier being selfish by not tell the surrounding galaxy the truth shortly after arriving on the planet.

    :devil: